Trump and neocons started War with Iran in order to win elections?

[Derec]

They have some tough rhetoric, but in the face of US aggression that's expected.

The aggression is coming from Iran. They attacked a US base killing a contractor. They downed our drone last year. They attacked Saudi oil facilities. All those are acts of war.

Iran hasn't invaded any other nations lately. That's the US. Iran is showing restraint.

How about Iraq (multiple Iranian militias), Lebanon and Syria (OG Hezbollah), Gaza (Hamas, PIJ), Yemen (Houthis). Am I forgetting any?
IRGC Quds Force is running all these militias. Iran does not have plausible deniability in these conflicts.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Don't worry. He will kill more Muslims soon.

Iran killed more Muslims downing that Boeing jet taking off the Tehran airport than Trump did killing Soleimani.

What a ridiculous comparison.

 

[Derec]

I read that the general the US assassinated was responsible in large part for defeating Isis. Is that true?

While Quds Force was fighting against ISIS (because they were the wrong franchise of Islam, not because they didn't like all the Islamist stuff they did) most damage to ISIS was done by US bombings and on the ground by the Kurds.

I also heard that his core mission statement was to get foreign powers and influence, especially the USA, out of Iran.

US doesn't even have an embassy in Iran, much less any power and influence.
The core mission of the Quds force is to destroy Israel and conquer Jerusalem. Hence their name - Islamic name for Jerusalem is "al Quds".

Can hardly blame him for being the monster he was given that the USA has literally surrounded his country.

Oh please!

Yes, he did murderous things, but it's still very hard to see the US as the good guys here, especially now that Trump is threatening war crimes. Is it any wonder that they call USA the "Great Satan"?

The weird beards have called US "the Great Satan" from the time they took over the country. Nothing to do with Trump whatsoever.
And remember, it was Iran who occupied our embassy and held hostages for over a year. Not the other way around.

It is also pretty hilarious when the US talking heads try to pretend that Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan/North Korea are threats to the US. The reverse is the truth, and justifies Iran seeking nuclear weapons.

Bullshit.

The rest of the world should consider standing united with sanctions against the US.

The rest of the world should get their heads out of their asses and realize that trading with the weird beards is not worth the cost.

 

[Derec]

What a ridiculous comparison.

I guess so, because a terrorist leader like Soleimani and his collaborators (like Muhandis) are a legitimate military target while a civilian airliner is not.

 

[Derec]

You seem to have no sense of perspective or capacity to actually understand what people are saying.

I do have both. What you don't appreciate is that Trump's non-response is merely going to embolden the weird beards. They will see it as a sign of weakness.
Appeasement does not work.

And your impugning other people's patriotism is detestable. You're not committing any resources, and you don't have anything of value at stake in any of this - your words are hollow.

How do you know what I have or don't have at stake?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Iran will eventually have nukes. They saw what happened to Libya and they see what is happening in North Korea. They're not stupid.

 

[Derec]

Iran will eventually have nukes. They saw what happened to Libya and they see what is happening in North Korea. They're not stupid.

All the more reason to bomb their nuclear facilities yesterday.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What a ridiculous comparison.

I guess so, because a terrorist leader like Soleimani and his collaborators (like Muhandis) are a legitimate military target while a civilian airliner is not.

You are cherry picking. Conservatives of all stripes have killed tens of thousands. Making it sound like it's about one person is as ridiculous as allying yourself with Trump because you hate Muslims.

 

[Derec]

You are cherry picking. Conservatives of all stripes have killed tens of thousands. Making it sound like it's about one person is as ridiculous as allying yourself with Trump because you hate Muslims.

I am not aligning myself with Trump. Neither do I hate Muslims. I however, think that political Islam is an existential threat to free societies.

But why do faux-liberals like you align yourself with theocratic Iran?

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/08/opinion/us-iran-soleimani.html

In 1988 I traveled to Iran for the funerals of those 290 civilians. Their bodies had been fished from the water of the Persian Gulf and brought home for burial. My editor called me as I left for Tehran, asking me to consider the possibility that Iran shot down the plane itself, since she thought it odd that the recovered bodies were unclothed. “Did they put naked corpses in that plane before they shot it down?” she asked.

She could be forgiven for not knowing the relevant physics: Clothing would be torn from the passenger’s bodies as the exploding plane plummeted from the sky into the sea. It was harder to forgive her cultural unawareness: A state as obsessed with modesty as Iran was — to the extent of covering every hair on a woman’s head and every male kneecap — would never consider undressing bodies before blowing them up.

Ignorance surrounded — and still surrounds — that tragedy. In the immediate aftermath of the downing of Iran Air 655, the United States military’s prevarications came thick and fast: The plane wasn’t in the civilian air corridor. (It was.) It didn’t have its transponder turned on. (It did.) It was descending toward the Vincennes. (It wasn’t.)

So, the US has also killed innocent Iranians. Sure, it was decades ago, but we aren't above doing evil deeds, as if obvious from our history.

General Suleimani has American blood on his hands, as we are reminded repeatedly, not only by President Trump but also by Democratic presidential candidates. This is true. But is it wrong to remind ourselves of the Iranian blood we have on ours?

On other reporting trips to Iran, I visited Khorramshahr, a city that had been reduced to rubble by a barrage of shelling by Saddam Hussein, as well as the civilian neighborhoods of Tehran, which had endured a similar barrage. At that time Mr. Hussein was, as the United States ambassador in Baghdad told me, “a guy we can work with.” We and Israel secretly provided him with information on how best to target his missile strikes. There, too, civilian Iranian blood was on our hands.

Trump's erratic decision to kill the general was stupid. Killing one bad guy isn't going to accomplish anything, and it could lead to a more disastrous outcome, hopefully not.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You do realize it would be a LOT harder for Iranian missiles to hit US bases in Iraq if there weren't any US bases in Iraq.

They could try Kuwait or Qatar or Saudi Arabia.

So you agree that if there were no US bases in Iraq then Iran would not attack US bases in Iraq.

Now if you could only extend that logic a little...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What the US has done is throw away any spectre of credibility for peace. The US should not be the region halfesy around the planet in the first place. And attacks on Iran isn't going to take the "weird beards" as Derec calls them, but rather play directly into their hands and create more support for them. Before Trump, Iran was by all reports respecting and adhering to the deal Obama made with them, and wasn't building nukes. They will be now.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Now if you could only extend that logic a little...

..

 

[Derec]

What the US has done is throw away any spectre of credibility for peace.

May I remind you that it was
- Iranian militias that attacked a US base killing a contractor
- Iran that downed our drone
- Iran that attacked Saudi oil facilities

It is Iran that engages in endless aggression.

The US should not be the region halfesy around the planet in the first place.

Whether or not we should be, the fact is that we are and it is not realistic that US would leave the region altogether, except if maybe Bernie became president. But fat chance of that!

And attacks on Iran isn't going to take the "weird beards" as Derec calls them, but rather play directly into their hands and create more support for them.

So your "solution" is not to do anything when attacked by Iran?
I guess half-measures will not get rid of the weird beards, but more decisive action would. Most Iranians are sick and tired of the "revolution" anyway.

Before Trump, Iran was by all reports respecting and adhering to the deal Obama made with them, and wasn't building nukes. They will be now.

That was a rotten deal. It removed sanctions on Iran, but would have only prevented them from developing nukes for 15 years. And it did nothing about Iran's development of long-range missiles nor about their involvement in international terrorism.

 

[Derec]

So you agree that if there were no US bases in Iraq then Iran would not attack US bases in Iraq.

It's kind of a "Captain Obvious" observation.

Now if you could only extend that logic a little...

US bases can't be attacked where they don't exist. That doesn't mean US retreat from the ME region and leaving the region to Russia and Iran would be a good idea.
Logic fail.

 

[Derec]

So, the US has also killed innocent Iranians. Sure, it was decades ago, but we aren't above doing evil deeds, as if obvious from our history.

Yes, that was decades ago. It was also accidental, not deliberate, not evil. Quite unlike the Iranians then attempting to murder family of the Vincennes captain.
Vincennes Skipper’s Wife Escapes Bomb in San Diego

Now THAT is evil.

General Suleimani has American blood on his hands, as we are reminded repeatedly, not only by President Trump but also by Democratic presidential candidates. This is true. But is it wrong to remind ourselves of the Iranian blood we have on ours?

Again, there is a difference between deliberate terrorist actions and a tragic accident. Geraldine Brooks is truly deplorable!

We and Israel secretly provided him with information on how best to target his missile strikes. There, too, civilian Iranian blood was on our hands.

An obligatory anti-Israel dig, a must for every piece of apologia for the Iranian theocracy!

Trump's erratic decision to kill the general was stupid. Killing one bad guy isn't going to accomplish anything, and it could lead to a more disastrous outcome, hopefully not.

Actually that attack claimed 5 IRGC officers, including another major general and a colonel, as well as three Iranian-controlled militia officers, including the second in command of the PMC.
But yes, by itself it will not mean much without follow through. Unfortunately, Trump is not exactly Mr. Follow Through. More like Mr. Leave Things Half Finished.

 

[lpetrich]

Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "War doesn’t have a reset button, I learned this lesson at the age of Eight.
Lives will be lost, many innocent lives will be lost and the future of generations will be impacted.
Let’s call for peace." / Twitter

H.R.5543 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): No War Against Iran Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

Introduced by Ro Khanna, it had 47 cosponsors at its introduction, including IO and AOC.

 

[ZiprHead]

Rand Paul, Mike Lee rip administration over 'insulting and demeaning' Iran briefing

"I find this insulting and demeaning ... to the office that each of the 100 senators in this building happens to hold. I find it insulting and demeaning to the Constitution of the United States," Lee said.

Lee did not say which briefer made the assertion but specified that no administration representative contradicted them. He added that he was going to have a "conversation" with Trump about the remarks.

"I find that absolutely insane. I think that's unacceptable," Lee added.

Paul added that he found the briefing "less than satisfying" and knocked the administration for using the 2002 war authorization as the basis for last week's airstrike against an Iranian general.

"I see no way in the world you could logically argue that an authorization to have war with Saddam Hussein has anything to with having war with people currently in Iraq," Paul told reporters.

He added that using the 2002 authorization to justify the strike that killed Gen. Qassem Soleimani in Baghdad was "absurd" and an "insult."

"Let's have the debate, and let's have some senators stand up," Paul said.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Meanwhile, Iran likely shot down a Ukrainian airline. The airport is located on the south side of Tehran and the plane went out of contact while ascending.

The hint that Iran accidentally fucked up is that Iran immediately had a reason (mechanical or engine) why the plane crashed.

Big hint is the fact that pilots did not send any distress.

Not saying anything doesn't mean that much. Standard piloting is Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Your first priority is to keep the plane under control, your second is to point the plane where you want it to go, only then do you worry about telling others what's going on. If the fertilizer is in the air mover that takes priority. Remember the Miracle on the Hudson? ATC kept trying to talk to him, his only transmission was saying they will be in the Hudson, and his only communication with the passenger was the brace for impact call. That's what happens in a very simple situation where the pilots knew the whole situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What the US has done is throw away any spectre of credibility for peace. The US should not be the region halfesy around the planet in the first place. And attacks on Iran isn't going to take the "weird beards" as Derec calls them, but rather play directly into their hands and create more support for them. Before Trump, Iran was by all reports respecting and adhering to the deal Obama made with them, and wasn't building nukes. They will be now.

The problem is that there's no good answer here.

What Iran wants is for us to leave them alone to conquer the Muslim lands--but then they're going to come after the rest of the world. Islam can't accept not being top dog.