Trump and neocons started War with Iran in order to win elections?

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Boy, you guys are dense. He already said he specifically did it to AVOID A WAR, not to START A WAR.

What are you?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I thought that was a joke. Egad!

 

[Patooka]

That's the first time I've been called dense because I don't take Trump at his word.

I suppose that does make sense because you'd have to be Erwin Schrödinger to find some consistency in what Trump says/does/tweets.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Impeachment is irrelevant. This has always been the plan. It's been the neocon plan for the last 20 years. Taking over Afghanistan and Iraq leads one to next take over Iran. It's the geography that makes it obvious.

Some 15 years ago I said that this would happen, but my expectation was that it would be after Iraq and Afghanistan had more stability.

Trump tried to frame himself as a non-interventionist or isolationist but his actual real self is Chief Neocon and it's not the kind of neocon that wants to save the world with democracy at the end of a gun either, it's the corrupt kind that wants to install friendly governments for resources. Now the question of a ground invasion right now would be pretty insane because Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan are not at an ideal level of stability. But if you look at what Trump has done, you can see this has been a longer term endeavor than just right now that he's been impeached.

Don't get distracted by small news and instant gratification sensationalism. This assassination news is significant, yes, but it's a small part of a larger pattern that's been going on.

Take note of the following article:
It Sure Looks Like the Trump Administration Is Preparing for War With Iran

That was from back in May of this year before impeachment.

The trouble is, the US lacks the military to go to war with Iran. It’d take half to three quarter million troops bare minimum. We have the tech but not the troops. Also it would take half a year to mobilize the force... and we’d need somewhere to mobilize them to first.

War with Iran is nothing like Iraq and Afghanistan... and while the wars there were cake walks, the occupations were extremely difficult and close to failures.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Patooka]

The trouble is, the US lacks the military to go to war with Iran. It’d take half to three quarter million troops bare minimum. We have the tech but not the troops. Also it would take half a year to mobilize the force... and we’d need somewhere to mobilize them to first.

War with Iran is nothing like Iraq and Afghanistan... and while the wars there were cake walks, the occupations were extremely difficult and close to failures.

This is very presumptuous of me, but I don't think Americans will tolerate things like stop loss, lack of equipment and shitty intelligence a second time. So there's that at least. It does provide a non-zero chance that Trump will put it in the "too hard" pile and just sulk at a golf course.

 

[Elixir]

This would have been a really great thing to have done covertly to send a message to Iran - it might have actually caused them to back off some of the mischief they've been up to ever since idiot Trump pulled out of the agreement that kept them from doing that kind of shit. 2011 - 2018 they were behaving much better than they had since 1979. But this was no message, just a rogue president issuing illegal assassination orders and bragging about it. There is no strategy in play here whatsoever, just an impulsive ego on display, as usual.

I have to say, kudos to the intelligence community that Trump so reviles, and to the people who executed the tactical success. And good riddance to an evil bastard.
But as far as strategy - this assassination wouldn't even make the stage in amateur hour. In fact there is no strategy. The effect desired can't even be articulated, other than to feel good about killing a bad guy and taking people's minds off the fact that there's an impeached lying bastard in the Whitehouse awaiting trial in the Senate, and usurping whatever power he can from the other branches of government in order to save his corrupt ass.

Anyone who says that this makes the middle east or anywhere else safer, is lying or is as stupid as Orange Judas.

As I heard one talking head point out, these people [Iranians] don't mind losing a few people, or a few hundred thousand people for that matter. Killing one dude, no matter his title, harms them not in the least. This isn't even a pinprick, just some fuel for anti-american fervor.
A really stupid stunt.

 

[Derec]

One problem with that stupid meme is that Trump approved DAPL and KXL and is generally in favor of domestic oil production including fracking. Fracking is what has kept oil and gas prices relatively low for the last 5 years or so. It is certain Democrats who want to ban fracking and shut down pipelines, which would directly help out Putin re oil prices, all without waging war on one of his allies.



So why aren't we accusing Warren and Bernie of being Russian assets?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

The trouble is, the US lacks the military to go to war with Iran. It’d take half to three quarter million troops bare minimum. We have the tech but not the troops. Also it would take half a year to mobilize the force... and we’d need somewhere to mobilize them to first.

War with Iran is nothing like Iraq and Afghanistan... and while the wars there were cake walks, the occupations were extremely difficult and close to failures.

This is very presumptuous of me, but I don't think Americans will tolerate things like stop loss, lack of equipment and shitty intelligence a second time.

Unfortunately, what we tolerate (or not) has fuck-all to do with what the military will or will not do. It's not like we have access to their off-buttons.

 

[ZiprHead]

And the disinformation campaign begins.

 

[JohnG]

Boy, you guys are dense. He already said he specifically did it to AVOID A WAR, not to START A WAR.

This does nothing to weaken them. Just infuriates Iran.

 

[Ford]

Boy, you guys are dense. He already said he specifically did it to AVOID A WAR, not to START A WAR.

What are you?

Someone completely ignorant of the fact that Trump throwing the arduously negotiated nuclear deal out the window, reimposing sanctions, and killing a high-raking Iranian isn't doing a damned thing to avoid a war?

 

[barbos]

I am trying to find evidence supporting CNN generals claims that Soleimani was responsible for hundreds of deaths of American soldiers. So far I found zilch. Wikipedia mentions only his cooperation with US against Taliban and his war with ISIS. Yes, he obviously supported Assad (it's official policy of Iran). I don't doubt that he was a main guy behind all the crap Iran does abroad, but hundreds of americans killed? It's very new to me.

 

[Patooka]

Boy, you guys are dense. He already said he specifically did it to AVOID A WAR, not to START A WAR.

What are you?

Someone completely ignorant of the fact that Trump throwing the arduously negotiated nuclear deal out the window, reimposing sanctions, and killing a high-raking Iranian isn't doing a damned thing to avoid a war?

More like someone who naively believes Trump threw the Kurds under the bus to minimize US deaths in the Middle East, while being totally okay with US lives being put at risk as Saudi Arabia's proxy in their war against Iran.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I am trying to find evidence supporting CNN generals claims

What is a "CNN general"? Do you mean you saw a US Army General on CNN make a claim?

 

[Keith&Co.]

View attachment 25480

Boy, you guys are dense. He already said he specifically did it to AVOID A WAR, not to START A WAR.

you'recquoting theguy who promised he'd release his taxes when elected?
Who said Mexico would pay for the wall?
Who said dishwashers explode?
That beaccon of truthiness?

Who promised to take full responsibility for the shutdown?



And...we're dense?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Iranian forces in Iraq were attacking US forces. That's an act of war. His Flatulence hit back at something besides cannon fodder. While I have a hard time imagining him getting something right I think he did here.

Iran is smart enough not to go to war over this (beyond the current level of the war at least. There already is a de-facto state of low level war between the US and Iran.)

 

[barbos]

Iranian forces in Iraq were attacking US forces. That's an act of war. His Flatulence hit back at something besides cannon fodder. While I have a hard time imagining him getting something right I think he did here.

Iran is smart enough not to go to war over this (beyond the current level of the war at least. There already is a de-facto state of low level war between the US and Iran.)

I guess you can provide a proof of the claim that Soleimani (or Iran in general) was responsible for hundreds of deaths of American soldiers

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Iranian forces in Iraq were attacking US forces.

When? Not in regard to the embassy. That wasn't an "attack," that was a bunch of protesters upset at the actual attack by the US in retaliation for a "Pentagon contractor" being killed, not US soldiers (emphasis mine):

Demonstrators stormed the gates of Washington's embassy in Baghdad on Tuesday. For two days, a crowd of mostly young men shouting anti-U.S. slogans and waving flags of Iraq's state-sponsored Popular Mobilization Forces paramilitary collective and its affiliated militias defaced the compound's exterior and set fire to some structures.

The embassy itself was never breached and the U.S. sent additional Marines and aircraft to bolster security onsite. On Tuesday, the protests subsided after organizers heeded the calls of the Iraqi government and Popular Mobilization Forces to withdraw from the building's premises, which are located within the so-called Green Zone of Baghdad.

Why did it happen?

The incident followed a deadly series of events. The U.S. blamed Friday's death of a Pentagon contractor in a rocket attack on the Iran-backed, Shiite Muslim Kataib Hezbollah militia, and the U.S. retaliated Sunday with strikes on positions near the Syrian border, killing up to 27 fighters and stirring national outrage. Members and supporters of the Popular Mobilization Forces, which includes Kataib Hezbollah, took to the streets in protest.

Iraqi Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi, along with leading figures such as Ali al-Sistani, Muqtada al-Sadr, Amir al-Amiri, Qais al-Khazali and Falih al-Fayyadh all condemned the Pentagon's strikes because they were not coordinated with Baghdad. The embassy protests came after a funeral rally for the slain fighters, and Amiri, Khazali and Fayyadh, along with other top Popular Mobilization Forces militia leaders, were among those in attendance.

President Donald Trump insisted on Twitter that the embassy was always "SAFE" because of the presence of U.S. forces there. He warned, however, that "Iran will be held fully responsible for lives lost, or damage incurred, at any of our facilities"—threatening that they "will pay a very BIG PRICE!

Other U.S. officials condemned the incident, which they also attributed to Iran. In a readout of his call Wednesday with Abdul-Mahdi, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo referred to the protests as an "Iran-backed terrorist attack." Defense Secretary Mark Esper described them as "violent rallies" that came at "the instigation" of "Iranian-backed Shia militias." Both men also warned that the Trump administration would respond to further attacks on U.S. interests.

As was reported in regard to the earlier rocket attack (emphasis mine):

"One U.S. civilian contractor was killed and several U.S. service members and Iraqi personnel were wounded in a rocket attack on an Iraqi military base in Kirkuk hosting Coalition troops, on Dec. 27 at 7:20 p.m. (Iraqi time)," the U.S.-led coalition said. "Iraqi Security Forces are leading the response and investigation. Further information will be released as it becomes available."

Iow, someone--presumed to have been backed by Iran--attacked an IRAQI military base that was "hosting" coalition forces, but there is no evidence that I can find that whoever fired a few katyusha's at the base was specifically targeting coalition forces or even knew if there were any such forces on the base.

Regardless, it was not a US base and the person killed was a US contractor, not a soldier, so nothing about what happened then and subsequently could possibly have been considered acts of war against the US, but everything Trump has done in response will rightly be considered acts of war by Iran and/or Iraq.

And certainly nothing was done to justify any further "retaliation" from Trump. Some angry protesters--who arguably were justified considering 27 of their friends were evidently killed--stormed one of the most heavily fortified buildings in the world, got nowhere and set a fire while everyone inside the embassy was--as Trump affirmed--perfectly safe the entire time. It ended nearly as soon as it began, so what exactly were we "retaliating" against?

Not to mention the fact that the spin since has said nothing of retaliation for the embassy and everything about:

“General Suleimani was actively developing plans to attack American diplomats and service members in Iraq and throughout the region,” a Pentagon statement said. “This strike was aimed at deterring future Iranian attack plans.”

So, which is it?

ETA: The only thing I can find is this bit from the Guardian piece linked above:

The strike came at a time when Iraq was already on the brink of an all-out proxy war, and hours after a two-day siege of the US embassy in Baghdad by a mob of PMF militants and their supporters. The Pentagon accused Suleimani of having masterminded the mob attack.

Except, again, it wasn't a "mob attack."

 

[ZiprHead]

I am trying to find evidence supporting CNN generals claims that Soleimani was responsible for hundreds of deaths of American soldiers. So far I found zilch. Wikipedia mentions only his cooperation with US against Taliban and his war with ISIS. Yes, he obviously supported Assad (it's official policy of Iran). I don't doubt that he was a main guy behind all the crap Iran does abroad, but hundreds of americans killed? It's very new to me.

The Quds force was responsible for planting many roadside bombs that killed and injured hundreds if not thousands of US forces in Iraq, according to Senior Director for Iraq and Afghanistan Brent McGurk under Bush II, Obama, and Bonespurs.