What do you do about rape?

[bigfield]

How about stopping assaults when they are going down? I mean: I've done it myself, more than once and I'm not referring to stopping my own. Me, all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me. You know how? Saying STOP. I am sure the glare was pretty intimidating, too. The body language was as intimidating as I could make it, adrenalin helping. But seriously:

Nearly all assaults that I witness are the very violent type, involve a large number of people, and are only broken up by a team of trained security personnel or police. I have no idea what kind of assaults you are talking about that can be ended with a word and a glare.

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

That does not count as preventing rape.

And there are contexts in which even the most horrendous rape joke does not require admonishment. In most cases it is shock humour. Tom Sawyer's occasional jokes are one example of this.

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

Have you considered that most people on this forum don't find themselves at drunken teenage parties very often, and that perhaps this kind of situation never comes up?

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.

It's not clear at all what it is that you are calling for.

It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

That's not a very menschy thing to say.

 

[Toni]

Nearly all assaults that I witness are the very violent type, involve a large number of people, and are only broken up by a team of trained security personnel or police. I have no idea what kind of assaults you are talking about that can be ended with a word and a glare.

What I am talking about is walking into a room and finding a line of guys waiting to take their turn with my nearly passed out friend who truly had no idea what was going on. Do I know I was lucky? Of course I know that I was lucky. We all were. But I spent another night literally keeping a couple of guys off of a friend.

It is always safer to call for help--police, preferably. Sometimes help is not available and you are the help.

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

That does not count as preventing rape.

And there are contexts in which even the most horrendous rape joke does not require admonishment. In most cases it is shock humour. Tom Sawyer's occasional jokes are one example of this.

You are correct: Dead silence sometimes speaks louder but only when it cannot possibly be interpreted as going along.

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

Have you considered that most people on this forum don't find themselves at drunken teenage parties very often, and that perhaps this kind of situation never comes up?

Actually, most of these are not teenagers. College aged. And yeah, I know most are no longer that age but most have been that age.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.

It's not clear at all what it is that you are calling for.

Being a stand up person is the first step. If more people did that, there would be fewer assaults of all kinds. Assault generally arises from enraged passion--anger at a situation. That will probably always happen but can be minimized. But the other is the kind of assault that happens when people take advantage of a situation to take advantage of a person who either cannot help him/herself due to some incapacitation or because there is no one around willing to speak up. I'm not talking about sexual assaults only.

It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

That's not a very menschy thing to say.

I apologize to women for implying that somehow, women are less than men. But talking sweetly and saying please haven't worked these past thousands of years. It's time to stop pretending that rape is the victim's fault, is something that happens to other people, that other people do, that only affects some people. To stop feeling sad but embracing helplessness when even small acts can help turn the tide.

 

[Rhea]

The thread seems a bit confused. The quote in the OP is clearly about what people do to actively protect and prevent rape (avoiding groups of men at night, preventing your drink getting spiked, potential weapons to fight off an attack, etc.) so how are men expected to respond to that question put to them. The answer is that when it comes to physically preventing rape, most of us don't do anything (apart from the obvious of not doing it ourselves). No one knew the topic was intended to be about the more general topic of education, raising children, dealing with tasteless rape jokes, etc. or that apparently not having witness a rape and therefore not confronting a rapist is something worthy of criticism.

The men were asked what they do to prevent themselves from being raped. Why did you link this and then asked what men on TFT do to protect women?

the topic was a tangent from that thing I read, which I thought was provoking of further thought itself, but that also sent me on a tangent of, "okay, here's how we can help ourselves, and here's how we can see that others don't even think about this - what if they DID think about preventing rape? Not of themselves when they are never subject to it, but of others?

When women go out, they will often watch each other's backs. This is because most of them understand exactly what this means. The #yesallwomen posts go through lists of what women do for themselves and for each other.

What if, I wondered, men did some of these things for women more often? What if they were taught to think about it and get backs more often? So I asked the question the way I did because my first thought was, "maybe they do already and I'm not picking up on it? let's see what they come up with on their own without me leading the answers down a path that is already familiar to me? How can I open MY eyes?

So I genuinely wanted to know. Do you do anything? Like what?


One example for me is that when I leave work, it is known that there are people who feel extremely antagonistic towards me. There are three people who get this. This means, they just hang around at the end of the day, at least one of them, so that I'm not leaving the building alone. There are a couple of people who will try to counter antagonistic comments so that the commenter knows that the community thinks they are out of bounds - prevents the antagonist from thinking they have justification.

Another example is what women do for each other. They watch - if they aren't going to the bathroom together, they at least watch as a person goes to and from. And they take note of the people who are getting with their friends. And even strangers; they will take note when they see someone getting very drunk, or getting alone (such as at a fair or carnival and a person is sober but unaware). They will just make the observation clear, "I am seeing you, I am remembering you," and this is a deterrent.

I think maybe one thing that I'm learning from this discussion is that men may not know what to look for. That makes this an opportunity. The overbearing space-invader at the park or bar or whatever. The dark parking lot with the close-parked van. The offer to walk someone out while saying, "let me tell the bartender I'm walking you so that you know I'm trying to help."


The discussion could bring out more things like that.

When women do things to "prevent rape", they are not doing them once the rape starts. They do it to PREVENT. There are opportunities for men, friends and strangers, as well to diminish the likelihood and capacity for rape to occur.

 

[bigfield]

What I am talking about is walking into a room and finding a line of guys waiting to take their turn with my nearly passed out friend who truly had no idea what was going on. Do I know I was lucky? Of course I know that I was lucky. We all were. But I spent another night literally keeping a couple of guys off of a friend.

That's a pretty fucked-up situation.

If I were in your shoes I would have rescued my friend as well. I am willing to help my friends more than I am willing to help strangers or acquaintances. However it's not a situation I ever anticipate finding myself in - probably because I do not have social circles where such a situation is possible - and so I would never consider mentioning something like this in a reply to the OP. I suspect the same is true for other men on here who simply don't think about the possibility of walking in on a scene that is anything like what you have described.

It is always safer to call for help--police, preferably. Sometimes help is not available and you are the help.

I understand that. But sometimes - and I am mostly talking violent assault here - intervening means risking harm or arrest. I have stood by and watched plenty of brawls run their course, because it's just not worth getting in the way.

I cannot recall a single situation where I was in position to rescue someone from sexual assault.

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

Have you considered that most people on this forum don't find themselves at drunken teenage parties very often, and that perhaps this kind of situation never comes up?

Actually, most of these are not teenagers. College aged. And yeah, I know most are no longer that age but most have been that age.

College-aged, then. The point remains that asking what older people would do in college parties is pointless because they will never find themselves in that situation in the future. And as far as I'm aware this thread is not about judging people's character when they were college age.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.

It's not clear at all what it is that you are calling for.

Being a stand up person is the first step. If more people did that, there would be fewer assaults of all kinds. Assault generally arises from enraged passion--anger at a situation. That will probably always happen but can be minimized. But the other is the kind of assault that happens when people take advantage of a situation to take advantage of a person who either cannot help him/herself due to some incapacitation or because there is no one around willing to speak up. I'm not talking about sexual assaults only.

It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

That's not a very menschy thing to say.

I apologize to women for implying that somehow, women are less than men. But talking sweetly and saying please haven't worked these past thousands of years. It's time to stop pretending that rape is the victim's fault, is something that happens to other people, that other people do, that only affects some people. To stop feeling sad but embracing helplessness when even small acts can help turn the tide.

I for one am not pretending that rape is the victim's fault.

And rape is, in fact, something that other people do. I am not one of the group who condones or perpetrates rape. It is also in fact something that happens to other people, but has not happened to me and is unlikely to happen to me. It is also in fact something that only affects some people. "Pretending" has nothing to do with those things.

What tide needs turning? Is rape increasing in prevalence?

Most of the men I socialise with have a different problem with women other than hatred of them: They have difficulty with establishing healthy relationships because they have some bizarre views about women, including the common idea that promiscuous, sexual women are somehow bad people. But despite their bouts of ignorance, they don't do or say things which cause me to suspect that they are rapists or potential rapists. If they do then I will, as with other topics, be willing to argue my point of view.

 

[bigfield]

The men were asked what they do to prevent themselves from being raped. Why did you link this and then asked what men on TFT do to protect women?

the topic was a tangent from that thing I read, which I thought was provoking of further thought itself, but that also sent me on a tangent of, "okay, here's how we can help ourselves, and here's how we can see that others don't even think about this - what if they DID think about preventing rape? Not of themselves when they are never subject to it, but of others?

When women go out, they will often watch each other's backs. This is because most of them understand exactly what this means. The #yesallwomen posts go through lists of what women do for themselves and for each other.

What if, I wondered, men did some of these things for women more often? What if they were taught to think about it and get backs more often? So I asked the question the way I did because my first thought was, "maybe they do already and I'm not picking up on it? let's see what they come up with on their own without me leading the answers down a path that is already familiar to me? How can I open MY eyes?

So I genuinely wanted to know. Do you do anything? Like what?

Thanks for clarifying.

I for one watch out for everyone in my group, in the sense that I keep track of where they are and what state they are in, and intervene if they appear to be at risk. My number one concern is violence perpetrated by and against my male friends, because it is a common risk, can be fatal, and has happened on several occasions. I prevent this by de-escalating confrontations and arguments, and removing my friends from hostile situations. Another concern is excessive drunkeness, because it is also common and occasionally fatal. I suppose it also has the added bonus of preventing female friends from becoming rape victims.

When I see a female friend getting unwanted attention from a man, I send in another female friend to rescue her, because it is magnitudes less likely to result in a fight than if I tried to intervene (and get accused of "cockblocking" or some stupid shit). I also serve as a passive deterrent; men wait until I have gone to the bar before approaching my friends, and then they skulk off when I come back and give them a "caught you!" look. I have also lied to many men that "she's my girlfriend". That kind of thing likely prevents some assaults and harassment, but there doesn't seem to be a high risk of rape.

The offer to walk someone out while saying, "let me tell the bartender I'm walking you so that you know I'm trying to help."

Everyone can use company when walking through dark, isolated areas. Rape is not the only bad thing that happens to people in that situation. You proposition only makes sense if the man's destination is the same as the woman's, otherwise you are asking a man to increase a woman's safety at the expense of his own.

 

[Jarhyn]

I have a good friend. We go to the bar and pick up guys from time to time. We do so while drunk and we look after one another. We spot manipulative persons and liars as best we can. But here's the thing: when I go to the bar and have sex I regret and do so because I was drunk, that's not rape, that's stupidity.

 

[beero1000]

Nearly all assaults that I witness are the very violent type, involve a large number of people, and are only broken up by a team of trained security personnel or police. I have no idea what kind of assaults you are talking about that can be ended with a word and a glare.

It is at least a little interesting that this is probably very gender specific. Men are much more likely to be victims of violent assault, and fights start when men start glaring at each other. A stern word and a glare from a woman can cause a man to back down, while the same actions from another man can cause him to attack.

Personally, I would never give a strange male a "WTF-are-you-doing look" unless I was intending on getting in a fistfight. A group of men would be even worse. I would still step in if I ever found myself in Toni's situation, but I think that 6'6" me would probably have a lot more trouble defusing the situation than a 5'1" woman.

 

[bigfield]

Nearly all assaults that I witness are the very violent type, involve a large number of people, and are only broken up by a team of trained security personnel or police. I have no idea what kind of assaults you are talking about that can be ended with a word and a glare.

It is at least a little interesting that this is probably very gender specific. Men are much more likely to be victims of violent assault, and fights start when men start glaring at each other. A stern word and a glare from a woman can cause a man to back down, while the same actions from another man can cause him to attack.

Personally, I would never give a strange male a "WTF-are-you-doing look" unless I was intending on getting in a fistfight. A group of men would be even worse. I would still step in if I ever found myself in Toni's situation, but I think that 6'6" me would probably have a lot more trouble defusing the situation than a 5'1" woman.

One time, a man confronted me in a nightclub by getting up in my face while screaming at me and balling his fists. Apparently I had looked at him, or something, because all I could make out was "...you look at me..." and "...I'll fuckin' smash ya...". He was evidently on drugs, as he was trying to eat his own face off. I stepped back, turned on my heel and called for the bouncers. By the time I turned back around, the guy had been herded off by my girlfriend and her bestie, who were screaming at him and pointing fingers in his face. All of the fight had gone out of him because he had no idea how to respond to aggressive women, even though they were much smaller than him. The bouncers just grabbed him and marched him out.

It's a fascinating phenomenon.

 

[Jarhyn]

My opinion, for what it is worth coming from someone who is deeply atypical albeit wh has been on the receiving end of unwanted sexual encounters, is that many forms of 'rape' are not. Getting drunk is a contract with yourself to accept that you will make bad decisions. It is a gamble. It is an informed decision to put aside informed consent for a while, or at least to degrade its function. For me, the reaction to being abused while drunk is 'well, that sucks' and I move on. Because I took a risk, not thinking that it wouldn't happen to me but knowing it has before and will probably happen again at some point.

I really do not think that we should let people drink in bars and unchaperoned events until they have demonstrated an understanding of the dangers of being drunk. Then again I also think that the drinking age should be lowered to 14, and regulated similar to driving.

 

[bigfield]

My opinion, for what it is worth coming from someone who is deeply atypical albeit wh has been on the receiving end of unwanted sexual encounters, is that many forms of 'rape' are not. Getting drunk is a contract with yourself to accept that you will make bad decisions. It is a gamble. It is an informed decision to put aside informed consent for a while, or at least to degrade its function. For me, the reaction to being abused while drunk is 'well, that sucks' and I move on. Because I took a risk, not thinking that it wouldn't happen to me but knowing it has before and will probably happen again at some point.

You are talking about two different things here:
1. Having sex while drunk and therefore not exercising your best judgment about what you do and who you do it with.
2. Being abused while drunk.

 

[ksen]

What I see is a lot of: Hey, it's not my problem and I'm doing my share just by not raping anybody.

Yeah, but there's not a lot of that in this thread so I don't understand all the hostility you are pointing towards us unlucky enough to not have stumbled upon a rape in progress.

Toni may correct me, but the answer is in her post that you quoted.

We all get the joke of "I don't rape anyone." but if it really stops there, after the joke is laughed at, then it's dismissive.

Toni is talking about mending attitudes, and you are focussing on "I haven't ignored any rapes in progress." and pretending that is discussion about the very different aspect she is talking about.

That's not how I saw it. What I saw was guys expressing the attitude she says she wants to see but then tore into us for not actively stopping assaults like she has on multiple times.

 

[Bronzeage]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

How about stopping assaults when they are going down? I mean: I've done it myself, more than once and I'm not referring to stopping my own. Me, all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me. You know how? Saying STOP. I am sure the glare was pretty intimidating, too. The body language was as intimidating as I could make it, adrenalin helping. But seriously:

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.


It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

These sorts of things don't happen when I'm around. Take what you will from that.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

These sorts of things don't happen when I'm around. Take what you will from that.

You're like the Buddha. Peace and harmony just radiate from you.

 

[Bronzeage]

These sorts of things don't happen when I'm around. Take what you will from that.

You're like the Buddha. Peace and harmony just radiate from you.

That must be why people keep rubbing my tummy for good luck.

 

[rousseau]

With every new person born is a new potential assailant, so without some kind of fundamental change to global socialization, sexual violence is always going to be a problem.

That's why you can stop *a rape* from happening, but you can't stop *rape*.

Each new person born has the potential for both good and evil, and there is every evidence to suggest that those who are violent tend to be those who have been subjected to violence, or witnessed it in a normalising context.

So there's your butter knife. You live your life in the way you want the world to evolve, and imperceptibly move the dial on what we consider normal. Offer even a fleeting experience of kindness and rationality to children who aren't living in optimal circumstances. It increases their options for future behaviour. Their marginally improved behaviour contributes to your ripple effect.

Of course you can stop rape. You refrain, yourself. You discourage rapists and potential rapists, in the short term. You visualise and work towards the sort of society that is a bit more equal and a little less angry.

What you're saying aligns just fine with my previous post.

In this thread, and in almost every rape thread, I've questioned the assumption that rape is a *social* problem. Ultimately rape occurs for two reasons: 1) half of the human population is men, many unthinking, with hormones that are driving them to want sex at almost all times 2) this dynamic heavily reinforces what people call *rape culture*

So unless somehow we eliminate sex amongst our society (. . . ) or completely reverse the dynamic that our biology creates (. . . ), the mountain won't go away, which is the point I was making originally. I'm not trying to be negative about the situation, I'm redefining what I believe is actually the problem. So .. you can stop *a rape*, like you're saying, not *rape*.

 

[Shadowy Man]

What I am talking about is walking into a room and finding a line of guys waiting to take their turn with my nearly passed out friend who truly had no idea what was going on.

I was in college for five years and I never encountered this situation. I never encountered anything even close to this. The closest situation was this: One time a friend of one of my housemates brought someone to our house to drink with one of my housemates. She ended up passed out in our bathroom, but the guy was passed out on the couch, so he wasn't able to take advantage of her. So, I wasn't tested as to what I would do.

 

[Archimedes]

What I am talking about is walking into a room and finding a line of guys waiting to take their turn with my nearly passed out friend who truly had no idea what was going on. Do I know I was lucky? Of course I know that I was lucky. We all were. But I spent another night literally keeping a couple of guys off of a friend.

It is always safer to call for help--police, preferably. Sometimes help is not available and you are the help.

And do people who have never come across that or a similar situation deserve criticism? You got on people's cases when they didn't tell similar stories about how they stood up and prevented a rape in progress. You seemed to think lesser of them and told us about how even you, "all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me" stepped up and stopped a rape. There was a direct accusation there that there was something deficient about the previous posters in the thread who didn't tell a similar story of stopping a rape in progress. Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to deal with a rape in progress when I've never come across such a thing.

 

[Rhea]

In this thread, and in almost every rape thread, I've questioned the assumption that rape is a *social* problem. Ultimately rape occurs for two reasons: 1) half of the human population is men, many unthinking, with hormones that are driving them to want sex at almost all times 2) this dynamic heavily reinforces what people call *rape culture*

So unless somehow we eliminate sex amongst our society (. . . ) or completely reverse the dynamic that our biology creates (. . . ), the mountain won't go away, which is the point I was making originally.

This will likely be controversial, so I welcome push-back; I personally wonder if we can improve a lot of this sexual tension by addressing this issue of sex culture.

I agree that there exists such a thing as regretted sex (with or without the drunken), and I wonder if part of that is the prudish American culture that says sex-love=scummy/whorish/bad.

This is (stupidly!!!!) perpetuated by men who would like nothing more than to have more sex. Other people also perpetuate it. But the stupid ones are those whose self-interests are harmed by it. And it's all over our culture. So many books, especially female soft porn romance novels, have a formula wherein the heroine must be coerced so that she can maintain purity ("not her fault!" she's not a whore, really!). This both exposes and also perpetuates the sex culture that makes female sexuality operate under a warped and one-sided unhealthy system.

The "rape culture" is an expression of this, I think. An ugly one, but it has the same DNA.

I'm not trying to be negative about the situation, I'm redefining what I believe is actually the problem. So .. you can stop *a rape*, like you're saying, not *rape*.

And so I think people _can_ stop *rape* by destroying this sex culture that includes slut shaming and also by destroying the rape culture that seeks to look the other way when men test out the boundaries of their dominance ideas. "No dude, only an asshole would think that." Say it as often as an opportunity arises. Only an asshole would think that a promiscuous woman has less worth or value as a person. Only an asshole would think it was okay to push past a lack of yes. Only an asshole would grab or grope without permission. Only an asshole would holler at a woman walking by to objectify her.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

 

[Rhea]

Do you folks think prostitution helps or harms this dynamic? On the one hand it objectifies. On the other it provides an outlet for sexual urges that may otherwise bottle up and explode (no pun intended)

I have not worked through prostitution enough to have a firm belief. My first response is that prostitution in general is not a bad thing, as long as the exploitation can be eliminated. Can it? Possibly by legalization?