What do you do about rape?

[RavenSky]

It is a matter of finding a "target of opportunity", not a matter of what she wears. The opportunity presents itself each time based on her perceived or observed (by the perp) vulnerability.

Interesting thought experiment. Send a small attractive woman in a bikini down a dark alley full of rapists, and then send a small plain looking woman with no make up and wearing a coat down the same alley, and see who gets raped first. Despite the study you think you recall reading, I'll put my money on the bikini clad girl. Note that vulnerability and what she's dressed like are not mutually exclusive factors.

Again, got any actual data to support your "thought experiment"

The only thing that might get the bikini-clad girl raped first is that a bikini would be easier to remove from her than the overcoat. That and the fact you sent her down the alley first.

I have to say, it is really aggravating to know that I spent a great deal of time and effort completely refuting the bullshit claim that a woman's choice of "sexy" clothing affects whether she will be raped, yet here you are still insisting it is true, because, you know, it makes sense to you.

You are wrong. Period.

 

[Bronzeage]

It is a matter of finding a "target of opportunity", not a matter of what she wears. The opportunity presents itself each time based on her perceived or observed (by the perp) vulnerability.

Interesting thought experiment. Send a small attractive woman in a bikini down a dark alley full of rapists, and then send a small plain looking woman with no make up and wearing a coat down the same alley, and see who gets raped first. Despite the study you think you recall reading, I'll put my money on the bikini clad girl. Note that vulnerability and what she's dressed like are not mutually exclusive factors.

Again, got any actual data to support your "thought experiment"

The only thing that might get the bikini-clad girl raped first is that a bikini would be easier to remove from her than the overcoat. That and the fact you sent her down the alley first.

I have to say, it is really aggravating to know that I spent a great deal of time and effort completely refuting the bullshit claim that a woman's choice of "sexy" clothing affects whether she will be raped, yet here you are still insisting it is true, because, you know, it makes sense to you.

You are wrong. Period.

I don't know if statistics are kept on what rape victims were wearing at the time of the crime. The Department of Anecdotal Evidence does know two women who were raped. One was a small attractive woman who was naked at the time. This was not unusual because she was drawing a bath at the time. This is why she did not hear a man break into her house. Two days later, her naked body was found in the Atchafalaya River, near the Interstate 10 causeway. The other woman was wearing a track suit. Her body was found in a drainage canal, 35 miles from the place where she was abducted. She too was a small attractive woman, well, as attractive as any 68 year old woman who jogs to maintain her weight might be.

If anyone has stories of bikini clad women who were raped, the Department of Anecdotal Evidence will be happy to include them in the next report. I knew both of these women and they come to mind whenever someone brings up the idea that a woman's clothing, or lack of it, somehow entices men to rape them.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

no make up and wearing a coat down the same alley, and see who gets raped first. Despite the study you think you recall reading, I'll put my money on the bikini clad girl. Note that vulnerability and what she's dressed like are not mutually exclusive factors.

Again, got any actual data to support your "thought experiment"

The only thing that might get the bikini-clad girl raped first is that a bikini would be easier to remove from her than the overcoat. That and the fact you sent her down the alley first.

I have to say, it is really aggravating to know that I spent a great deal of time and effort completely refuting the bullshit claim that a woman's choice of "sexy" clothing affects whether she will be raped, yet here you are still insisting it is true, because, you know, it makes sense to you.

You are wrong. Period.

I may be wrong. This isnt something I have studied or researched. As you say, it just seems more plausible to me that a woman dressed to look more attractive and more enticing will be more likely to draw men to want to rape her.

You seem emotionally invested against this idea and perhaps you have research to support that. But try not to get aggravated that somebody on the internet hasnt read everything you may have written about it or studies you may have linked to about it, in another thread on another board.

This isnt normally a topic that much interests me, but you have piqued my curiousity. Do you have a research report showing an experiment controlling for all but how women are dressed, that shows no difference?

 

[steve_bnk]

Thereis no longer any deterrence to rape.

It used to be in acommunity abuse such as rape would be handled within if a male gottoo far out of line. Adult males would respond up to and includingtaking the man aside and beating the hell of him.
Todaythat would be largely unacceptable, people would be sued and or arrested.

While people rant about police brutality and abuse of power, the reality is police have largely been proscribed from acting proactively.

Backin the 50s I was alone in a locker room at the Y. An older kid maybe 18 or 19 started giving me some trouble. One of the staff heard it, they dragged him to the gym, held him down in a chair, and washed hismouth our t with soap.

The social-sexual revolution of the 60s-70s removed a lot of the old social boundaries on behavior both male and female. TV is awash in violence, language, and overt sexuality unthinkable in the 60s.

look at the James Bond mythos, especially the early films. Women are bent to the lead characte's will resulting in sexual submission. In his BarbaraWalters interview Connery said men have the right to physicallystrike a woman if she gets 'out of line'.
Point being you can not separate behaviors from what is drilled into the culture by the media in all forms.

I asked this on another tread. If you oppose rape, do you also oppose porn that depicts rape even given it is done with consenting adults? An individual may get aroused by it but never actually rape, but it goes to the point of the power of social norms.

Is there something inherently ambiguous about a culture that feeds ongraphic sex and violence, but then gets upset by the few who actually succumb to it?

I stopped watching porn when I realized what a lot of it represented. Humiliation and degradation of women.

It is a societal symptom. We have a problem with sexual violence and coercion among kids.

Steve: what world do you live in? You think guys don't beat up other guys on account of girls anymore? Seriously? You think the prospects for women avoiding sexual assault were actually better in "the good ol' days" of the 1950s?

I said nothing about good old days, there plenty of issues in the times.

I did say norms have changed on sex and that has had an impact not always positive.
I am saying the sexual inhibitions andsex roles changed for both men and women.

What reality are you living in? Unlikethe past era movies, TV, video games, and music push graphic sexualviolence.

Answer my question, do you support rapein porn by consenting adults such that watchers get off on the imageof rape?

A common theme in Japanese porn andanime. A barely legal looking inexperienced girl forced to have sexsquealing in fear, and at the end moaning in passion.

Sexuality socially is in large part iscultural ad learned. The western male fascination with exposedfemale breasts and women who go around in carrying degrees of exposedflesh is entirely cultural.

There is a Pacific island where onsideof the tourist areas both men and women go topless. In their culturethe exposed thigh is sexually provocative .

I am not justifying rape, butculturally women play hide and seek. I will let you see my tits, just maybe. Maybe I will even let you touch them, maybe not. 60s erahigh school back seat petting. The paradigm was if the femalechooses, she rewards the male.

Overall rape is about much more thanacts of individuals. It is about culture.

Something has changed culturally.Campus rape is said to be epidemic. Teen STDS, pregnancies, andrape.


The problem is our bizarre sexualculture riddled with contradictions. If kids do not get a sexualmorality or code of conduct from parents or school, they will pickit up elsewhere. In the 50s/60s us kids picked it from group notparents or school.

 

[Tigers!]

Thereis no longer any deterrence to rape.

It used to be in acommunity abuse such as rape would be handled within if a male gottoo far out of line. Adult males would respond up to and includingtaking the man aside and beating the hell of him.
Todaythat would be largely unacceptable, people would be sued and or arrested.

While people rant about police brutality and abuse of power, the reality is police have largely been proscribed from acting proactively.

Backin the 50s I was alone in a locker room at the Y. An older kid maybe 18 or 19 started giving me some trouble. One of the staff heard it, they dragged him to the gym, held him down in a chair, and washed hismouth our t with soap.

The social-sexual revolution of the 60s-70s removed a lot of the old social boundaries on behavior both male and female. TV is awash in violence, language, and overt sexuality unthinkable in the 60s.

look at the James Bond mythos, especially the early films. Women are bent to the lead characte's will resulting in sexual submission. In his BarbaraWalters interview Connery said men have the right to physicallystrike a woman if she gets 'out of line'.
Point being you can not separate behaviors from what is drilled into the culture by the media in all forms.

I asked this on another tread. If you oppose rape, do you also oppose porn that depicts rape even given it is done with consenting adults? An individual may get aroused by it but never actually rape, but it goes to the point of the power of social norms.

Is there something inherently ambiguous about a culture that feeds ongraphic sex and violence, but then gets upset by the few who actually succumb to it?

I stopped watching porn when I realized what a lot of it represented. Humiliation and degradation of women.

It is a societal symptom. We have a problem with sexual violence and coercion among kids.

Steve: what world do you live in? You think guys don't beat up other guys on account of girls anymore? Seriously? You think the prospects for women avoiding sexual assault were actually better in "the good ol' days" of the 1950s?

I said nothing about good old days, there plenty of issues in the times.

I did say norms have changed on sex and that has had an impact not always positive.
I am saying the sexual inhibitions andsex roles changed for both men and women.

What reality are you living in? Unlikethe past era movies, TV, video games, and music push graphic sexualviolence.

Answer my question, do you support rapein porn by consenting adults such that watchers get off on the imageof rape?

A common theme in Japanese porn andanime. A barely legal looking inexperienced girl forced to have sexsquealing in fear, and at the end moaning in passion.

Sexuality socially is in large part iscultural ad learned. The western male fascination with exposedfemale breasts and women who go around in carrying degrees of exposedflesh is entirely cultural.

There is a Pacific island where onsideof the tourist areas both men and women go topless. In their culturethe exposed thigh is sexually provocative .

I am not justifying rape, butculturally women play hide and seek. I will let you see my tits, just maybe. Maybe I will even let you touch them, maybe not. 60s erahigh school back seat petting. The paradigm was if the femalechooses, she rewards the male.

Overall rape is about much more thanacts of individuals. It is about culture.

Something has changed culturally.Campus rape is said to be epidemic. Teen STDS, pregnancies, andrape.


The problem is our bizarre sexualculture riddled with contradictions. If kids do not get a sexualmorality or code of conduct from parents or school, they will pickit up elsewhere. In the 50s/60s us kids picked it from group notparents or school.

Don't talk too much sense Steve. Some people won't like it.

 

[Sabine Grant]

no make up and wearing a coat down the same alley, and see who gets raped first. Despite the study you think you recall reading, I'll put my money on the bikini clad girl. Note that vulnerability and what she's dressed like are not mutually exclusive factors.

Again, got any actual data to support your "thought experiment"

The only thing that might get the bikini-clad girl raped first is that a bikini would be easier to remove from her than the overcoat. That and the fact you sent her down the alley first.

I have to say, it is really aggravating to know that I spent a great deal of time and effort completely refuting the bullshit claim that a woman's choice of "sexy" clothing affects whether she will be raped, yet here you are still insisting it is true, because, you know, it makes sense to you.

You are wrong. Period.

I may be wrong. This isnt something I have studied or researched. As you say, it just seems more plausible to me that a woman dressed to look more attractive and more enticing will be more likely to draw men to want to rape her.

Whereas my previous point and one I stand firm on is that the perceived or observed vulnerability by the perp is what makes her a target of opportunity. Explain to me why in my "freelance" mediation of sexual crimes victims support groups, what they all shared in common is vulnerability. Not what they wore. Not any level of having made themselves "enticing" and "attractive".

You seem emotionally invested against this idea and perhaps you have research to support that. But try not to get aggravated that somebody on the internet hasnt read everything you may have written about it or studies you may have linked to about it, in another thread on another board.

Part of her aggravation is your suggesting " a social experiment" totally disconnected from real life and use it for your conclusion of " I bet you....".

This isnt normally a topic that much interests me, but you have piqued my curiousity. Do you have a research report showing an experiment controlling for all but how women are dressed, that shows no difference?

Do you have any idea what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be questioned as to what they were wearing at the time they were subjected to the TRAUMA of a sexual assault or rape? Probably no more than the implications of your "social experiment".

 

[Sabine Grant]

Thereis no longer any deterrence to rape.

It used to be in acommunity abuse such as rape would be handled within if a male gottoo far out of line. Adult males would respond up to and includingtaking the man aside and beating the hell of him.
Todaythat would be largely unacceptable, people would be sued and or arrested.

While people rant about police brutality and abuse of power, the reality is police have largely been proscribed from acting proactively.

Backin the 50s I was alone in a locker room at the Y. An older kid maybe 18 or 19 started giving me some trouble. One of the staff heard it, they dragged him to the gym, held him down in a chair, and washed hismouth our t with soap.

The social-sexual revolution of the 60s-70s removed a lot of the old social boundaries on behavior both male and female. TV is awash in violence, language, and overt sexuality unthinkable in the 60s.

look at the James Bond mythos, especially the early films. Women are bent to the lead characte's will resulting in sexual submission. In his BarbaraWalters interview Connery said men have the right to physicallystrike a woman if she gets 'out of line'.
Point being you can not separate behaviors from what is drilled into the culture by the media in all forms.

I asked this on another tread. If you oppose rape, do you also oppose porn that depicts rape even given it is done with consenting adults? An individual may get aroused by it but never actually rape, but it goes to the point of the power of social norms.

Is there something inherently ambiguous about a culture that feeds ongraphic sex and violence, but then gets upset by the few who actually succumb to it?

I stopped watching porn when I realized what a lot of it represented. Humiliation and degradation of women.

It is a societal symptom. We have a problem with sexual violence and coercion among kids.

Steve: what world do you live in? You think guys don't beat up other guys on account of girls anymore? Seriously? You think the prospects for women avoiding sexual assault were actually better in "the good ol' days" of the 1950s?

I said nothing about good old days, there plenty of issues in the times.

I did say norms have changed on sex and that has had an impact not always positive.
I am saying the sexual inhibitions andsex roles changed for both men and women.

What reality are you living in? Unlikethe past era movies, TV, video games, and music push graphic sexualviolence.

Answer my question, do you support rapein porn by consenting adults such that watchers get off on the imageof rape?

A common theme in Japanese porn andanime. A barely legal looking inexperienced girl forced to have sexsquealing in fear, and at the end moaning in passion.

Sexuality socially is in large part iscultural ad learned. The western male fascination with exposedfemale breasts and women who go around in carrying degrees of exposedflesh is entirely cultural.

There is a Pacific island where onsideof the tourist areas both men and women go topless. In their culturethe exposed thigh is sexually provocative .

I am not justifying rape, butculturally women play hide and seek. I will let you see my tits, just maybe. Maybe I will even let you touch them, maybe not. 60s erahigh school back seat petting. The paradigm was if the femalechooses, she rewards the male.

Overall rape is about much more thanacts of individuals. It is about culture.

Something has changed culturally.Campus rape is said to be epidemic. Teen STDS, pregnancies, andrape.


The problem is our bizarre sexualculture riddled with contradictions. If kids do not get a sexualmorality or code of conduct from parents or school, they will pickit up elsewhere. In the 50s/60s us kids picked it from group notparents or school.

Don't talk too much sense Steve. Some people won't like it.

It is not a matter of not liking it. It is a matter of disagreeing with a statement such as:

The western male fascination with exposedfemale breasts and women who go around in carrying degrees of exposedflesh is entirely cultural.

which makes no distinction via the phrasing of " The western male". As if the author is projecting his own culture plagued with the remnants of puritanism to the entire whole of " The western male". If familiar with the topless beaches I very often frequent when in my country ( beaches widely along the French Riviera which is my home) Steve would not be able to include our French males into his "The western male fascination with exposed female breasts". Our males are indifferent to the thousands of exposed breasts on the beaches they frequent, to include my own exposed breasts. However, you can be sure that the male who is using his zoom on his camera to ogle thousands of exposed breasts is most probably...an American tourist!

As to the nudist beaches (same home, French Riviera) I also frequented, total indifference to the nudity of both genders. Nudists do not eyeball each other's exposed genitalia. There is no "fascination".

I had to come to this country (The US) to be dumbfounded when I realized that many American males will be "fascinated" by the sight of the exposed breast of a nursing mother. Where everything that has to do with female breasts is associated with "sex, sex and sex". Same nursing mothers who find themselves conditioned to hide their breast when breastfeeding in public.

Steve is certainly correct that how humans view nudity and partial nudity is dependent on the local culture. However the obsessive association with sex is often the product of a culture which has yet to recover from puritanism. With puritanism comes the side effect of sexual repression and frustration. Which might contribute to motivating sexual crimes.

 

[Underseer]

Are sex crimes motivated by sexual repression? It would be easy enough to compare nations to each other and demonstrate that this is the case if it were, but haven't the psychologists been telling us for decades that sex crimes are generally motivated by a desire to have power over others more than mere sexual gratification?

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Are sex crimes motivated by sexual repression? It would be easy enough to compare nations to each other and demonstrate that this is the case if it were, but haven't the psychologists been telling us for decades that sex crimes are generally motivated by a desire to have power over others more than mere sexual gratification?

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

I don't think that sexual repression is much of a factor, since those who can get sex without much trouble go around raping people as well. It's more just not giving a shit about others and deciding to take what you want from them without caring about what the consequences to them might be.

 

[Terrell]

I don't think that sexual repression is much of a factor, since those who can get sex without much trouble go around raping people as well. It's more just not giving a shit about others and deciding to take what you want from them without caring about what the consequences to them might be.

I think it's that simple as well. People don't give a shit about hurting others.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that sexual repression is much of a factor, since those who can get sex without much trouble go around raping people as well. It's more just not giving a shit about others and deciding to take what you want from them without caring about what the consequences to them might be.

I think it's that simple as well. People don't give a shit about hurting others.

I would say that people who rape don't give a shit about hurting others. Except for those for whom hurting someone is the main point.

 

[Toni]

dup post deleted

 

[Terrell]

I don't think that sexual repression is much of a factor, since those who can get sex without much trouble go around raping people as well. It's more just not giving a shit about others and deciding to take what you want from them without caring about what the consequences to them might be.

I think it's that simple as well. People don't give a shit about hurting others.

I would say that people who rape don't give a shit about hurting others. Except for those for whom hurting someone is the main point.

Well Duh, last I heard rape isn't the only form of violence.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that sexual repression is much of a factor, since those who can get sex without much trouble go around raping people as well. It's more just not giving a shit about others and deciding to take what you want from them without caring about what the consequences to them might be.

I think it's that simple as well. People don't give a shit about hurting others.

I would say that people who rape don't give a shit about hurting others. Except for those for whom hurting someone is the main point.

Well Duh, last I heard rape isn't the only form of violence.

The point I wanted to make is that plenty of people don't want to hurt other people.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

As Is Described on the Other Forum

DJ was threatened with rape with me present. We sent three of the would be rapists/robbers to the morgue and held the rest for the police. The other thing I do is not rape. Also if I see anyone threatened with rape, I help out. We did that some years ago. 10 people with swords make a molester run fast.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[J842P]

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

 

[angelo]

It is a matter of finding a "target of opportunity", not a matter of what she wears. The opportunity presents itself each time based on her perceived or observed (by the perp) vulnerability.

Interesting thought experiment. Send a small attractive woman in a bikini down a dark alley full of rapists, and then send a small plain looking woman with no make up and wearing a coat down the same alley, and see who gets raped first. Despite the study you think you recall reading, I'll put my money on the bikini clad girl. Note that vulnerability and what she's dressed like are not mutually exclusive factors.

You're making a case for the wearing of a burka here. Why should a woman have to cover up from head to toe just because some creeps see her as a sex object? The woman may feel attractive and sexy and her self confidence be sky high if she shows a little skin. Surely not a bad thing.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do you have any idea what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be questioned as to what they were wearing at the time they were subjected to the TRAUMA of a sexual assault or rape? Probably no more than the implications of your "social experiment".

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

 

[Archimedes]

Are sex crimes motivated by sexual repression? It would be easy enough to compare nations to each other and demonstrate that this is the case if it were, but haven't the psychologists been telling us for decades that sex crimes are generally motivated by a desire to have power over others more than mere sexual gratification?

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

Can you give examples from this thread of the "conservatives and libertarians" and what they are "objecting" to in this thread? I think you just blurt out these kind of kneejerk "conservolibertarian" objections regardless of the subject actual thread content.

I'm neither a libertarian or a conservative, but this tendency to turn very thread into an anti-whatever political gripe is getting boring as fuck.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You're making a case for the wearing of a burka here. Why should a woman have to cover up from head to toe just because some creeps see her as a sex object? The woman may feel attractive and sexy and her self confidence be sky high if she shows a little skin. Surely not a bad thing.

Indeed. Just because some creeps see her as a sex object, and may be more likely to do so depending on how she dresses, that is no reason to force her to cover up. Its her choice. And I'll take that further than most here would. I have no issues with public nudity, so long as it is kept sanitary.