Women and girls are harassed relentlessly from a young age, government report says - REBOOT

[laughing dog]

Insisting that the very real experience of having men accost us on the street demanding that we smile for them is not part of the problem is, in fact, pretending it doesn't exist. Women - real women - women on this board - have told you repeatedly that this has happened to us. And we have told you what too often happens when we fail to respond like the demure little puppets these men expect us to be.

I disagree. It is not pretending that it does not exist - it is DENYING that it exists. And this repeated denial is really just another example of implicit misogyny.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I disagree. It is not pretending that it does not exist - it is DENYING that it exists. And this repeated denial is really just another example of implicit misogyny.

And there we have it folks. A leap all the way from "I see nothing wrong with saying smile in and of itself" (non gendered) to an an accusation of misogyny.

Smile everybody. This thread is a wrap.

*dances off stage left*

 

[laughing dog]

I disagree. It is not pretending that it does not exist - it is DENYING that it exists. And this repeated denial is really just another example of implicit misogyny.

And there we have it folks. A leap all the way from "I see nothing wrong with saying smile in and of itself" (non gendered) to an an accusation of misogyny.

Another intellectually dishonest or disabled claim.

 

[starwater]

I disagree. It is not pretending that it does not exist - it is DENYING that it exists. And this repeated denial is really just another example of implicit misogyny.

And there we have it folks. A leap all the way from "I see nothing wrong with saying smile in and of itself" (non gendered) to an an accusation of misogyny.

Smile everybody. This thread is a wrap.

*dances off stage left*

And may sure YOU smile as you go.

 

[WAB]

I disagree. It is not pretending that it does not exist - it is DENYING that it exists. And this repeated denial is really just another example of implicit misogyny.

And there we have it folks. A leap all the way from "I see nothing wrong with saying smile in and of itself" (non gendered) to an an accusation of misogyny.

Another intellectually dishonest or disabled claim.

As a disabled person I take offense to that remark.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I disagree. It is not pretending that it does not exist - it is DENYING that it exists. And this repeated denial is really just another example of implicit misogyny.

And there we have it folks. A leap all the way from "I see nothing wrong with saying smile in and of itself" (non gendered) to an an accusation of misogyny.

Smile everybody. This thread is a wrap.

*dances off stage left*

And may sure YOU smile as you go.

Thanks!

 

[Arctish]

Cross your eyes.

 

[WAB]

Another intellectually dishonest or disabled claim.

As a disabled person I take offense to that remark.

Just kidding, I'm not really disabled. Mentally ill, but not disabled.

 

[thebeave]

This reminds me of a situation I was in a few years ago. I was in the parking lot of a hardware store listening to the radio and writing some notes, etc and I noticed a woman a few cars away with her hood up. She seemed to be adding engine oil, but I couldn't be sure. It did look like she was struggling, though, to do whatever it was she was trying to do. I contemplated about whether I should have offered some assistance, as I know my way around a car engine reasonably well. However, I thought she could get offended for thinking that I assumed she needed help just because she was a woman working on some "mechanical thingy", and thus ruin her day perhaps. On the other hand, I thought if I did go over and help her out, she might appreciate the gesture and maybe think there are still some good men out there. And perhaps make her day. TBH, I was a bit paralyzed over what I should do, but ultimately I just started my truck and took off. To this day, I still think about the situation and am not sure. Do you think I did the right thing by taking off and leaving her to her own devices? Just curious about his from a female perspective.

That's a really sad state of affairs. Had it been a guy who looked like he was struggling with it, would you have helped him?

Good question. Probably, as there's basically no risk of "an incident". With a guy, I'm not worried about getting some scornful look or lecture, or ruining his day. He'll either say something like, "Sure, thanks!" or "Naw, I'm good man. But thanks for asking." Also, with women, there's a thought in my head that she will think I'm trying to hit on her, or that I'll expect something from her in return for helping out. Often a woman will ask me for help in loading something heavy in her car, and I'm more than happy to lend a hand in that case. But in reality, I generally don't go out of my way to lend assistance to women for the reasons I stated. I will tell her to smile though. Just kidding!!

I will say that I always help out elderly women (and men) when its obvious they need a hand. They're always appreciative of my offers of assistance.

Yes, it is a sad state of affairs, as you say.

 

[Angry Floof]

Oh, so sad. Poor babies. What about the women and girls who are harassed relentlessly from a young age? Are you guys trying to derail from that yet again and trying to turn the thread into being about you?

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, so sad. Poor babies. What about the women and girls who are harassed relentlessly from a young age? Are you guys trying to derail from that yet again and trying to turn the thread into being about you?

Nowadays you tell a woman to smile, or you send her a dick pic, and for some reason you are harassing her!!!! Give us guys a break - doncha realize how difficult and confusing it is to be a man in this day and age?

 

[Arctish]

Puff out your cheeks.

 

[Toni]

Oh, so sad. Poor babies. What about the women and girls who are harassed relentlessly from a young age? Are you guys trying to derail from that yet again and trying to turn the thread into being about you?

I'd be ok with the thread being turned into all about the mens if they would make it all about the mens realizing that women can feel threatened, harassed, and just plain exhausted by the constant barrage of comments, gestures, expectations that women are supposed to be flattered by--but not too much, and respond to---but not too much and had some moments of self recognition, even if as bystanders only and felt a bit of empathy and thought: we've got to stop doing this sort of thing because women don't like it! Even if it's just the guys and not them and if they'd speak up and tell their bros that's not cool and knock it off and stuff.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only if he is carrying something. Same with a woman. Seems a courteous thing to do, ya?

Correct. So why do you object when women think it's degrading for men to just hold the door because they are female - implying they are incapable of operating a door?

I doubt any man ever held a door for a woman because he thought she was incapable of operating a door (unless she was literally, visibly disabled).

Holding a door, for a man or a woman, is a common tradition, and a simple courtesy.

I'll go a bit further--letting a door drop shut in someone's face is a discourtesy. If releasing it would cause it to still be moving when the next person gets there common decency says to hold it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's my construction site, so I am very familiar with the roads. Men think this is friendly and being nice. My take is that it is offensive, I am not capable. This is what men don't get. I doubt that it was sexual, am 59 years old, although I am told I still very attractive.

I was the only woman at this meeting (which is the way it has been for 20 years), all of these contractors respect me and are extremely professional in my presence. This guy was new.

OK, fair enough. Sounds like it wasn't considered sexual harrassment, but sexism. So, let's kick it up a notch. What if you got a flat tire on your truck on the construction site? Perhaps you're like me and you get about 1 or 2 flats per year and swap in the spare tire on your own, no problem. If a guy approached your truck and asked if you needed help, I assume you would be offended in this case as well. But what if you weren't knowledgeable or experienced in changing a tire, and a guy approached you with an offer of help. Would you welcome the help? Would you get pissed if the men on the site stood around and ignored you and your situation because they figure you were capable and already know how to put on the spare?

The point is, how is a guy to know? It seems like he would risk being in a classic Kobyoshi Maru situation. If he offers help he could get branded a misogynist for assuming a woman can't do a very basic, everyday thing like changing a tire. If he doesn't offer help, he could get branded a misogynist for purposely avoiding helping out a woman.

My general approach:

If I see someone slight trying to change a tire I'll stop and offer help--I figure they might not be capable of it. If I see someone who needs to change a tire but isn't I'll stop and offer help--it appears they either can't or don't know how. If I see someone who appears capable of it changing a tire I'll figure they know what they're doing and not stop. Male vs female doesn't enter into this. (It also can be misleading--last time I was changing a tire someone stopped--it was dark, I was down with the tire, my wife was standing up. I would have been lost in the shadows, she would be obvious, and she's both physically incapable of it and doesn't know how.)

 

[starwater]

Women staring in films should just smile more.

 

[RavenSky]

I doubt any man ever held a door for a woman because he thought she was incapable of operating a door (unless she was literally, visibly disabled).

Holding a door, for a man or a woman, is a common tradition, and a simple courtesy.

I'll go a bit further--letting a door drop shut in someone's face is a discourtesy. If releasing it would cause it to still be moving when the next person gets there common decency says to hold it.

WAB is, unfortunately, incorrect. Holding the door open for a woman comes from a long history of benevolent sexism towards women dating back to medieval concepts of chivalry and, later, the huge frelling dresses women were supposed to wear didn't allow them to get through the door without someone holding it open for them.

That said, I do agree with Loren that this courtesy has evolved, and we all need to get on the same page with it. I completely agree with Loren that "letting a door drop shut in someone's face is a discourtesy". I firmly believe that simple good manners means that whoever reaches the door first holds it for those behind - regardless of the sex/genders of the people involved.

Although I do understand the sexist history here, I think this is a tradition in flux. As such, I think that any women who assumes that a man is being sexist when he holds the door needs to keep those thoughts to herself and just say "thank you". She may be 100% correct, and the guy is a Don Draper throwback. Or he may be the type of man that will hold the door for both men and women. We can't tell at a glance, so I believe we should go with the assumption that they are extending a simple non-sexist courtesy.

And men, do continue to hold the door please. Don't hold it just for women because we are women, of course. But because WAB and Loren are correct - it is a simple courtesy - and should be universally accepted as such.

 

[WAB]

I would never think to hold a door for a woman and not extend the same simple courtesy to a man. Letting a door close in someone's face (man or woman - sad that that has to be constantly reiterated) is totally rude.

If, on the other hand, a person asked me to stop holding the door for them, I would try to remember that and not do it the next time the occasion arose.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I would never think to hold a door for a woman and not extend the same simple courtesy to a man. Letting a door close in someone's face (man or woman - sad that that has to be constantly reiterated) is totally rude.

If, on the other hand, a person asked me to stop holding the door for them, I would try to remember that and not do it the next time the occasion arose.

Really? If someone raised that as an issue to me, I’d ignore the shit out of them and do it again the next time anyways.

Mainly because I think that would really piss the asshole off.

 

[Toni]

I honestly cannot think of a single instance in my experience where a woman was upset by someone holding a door for her. I know I have inadvertently offended one or two older gentlemen by holding doors because I think they felt I thought they 'needed assistance' when really, I was just at the door before they were.