Women and girls are harassed relentlessly from a young age, government report says - REBOOT

[ruby sparks]

It would be if it wasn't immediately jumped on by Toni and others as an example of the problem.

I would have to remind myself of the order of events and what exactly was said. I don't recall anyone saying that saying 'smile' was always harassment.

Notice that JP did not provide actual evidence to support his claim - he simply is reporting his impression, not the actual statements.

Well, imo, some have come...close...ish...to saying it, even if he is wrong to say it was actually said.

My impression is that some have pretty much said it is always bad, in the scenarios presented in the videos, for example.

I think saying that this is often or mostly true, depending on the recipient's reaction, would be more accurate.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This whole "Smile" thing is another derail from the real point that the harassment is real and unending.

It is not to derail the point - it is an attempt to minimize the effects and frequency of harassment by claiming that not all of it is harassment.

^^^ That

Yes, exactly that. It is an attempt to show that if you over expand your definition to include what a reasonable person would not see as harassment, you can then show "harassment" to be everywhere all the time. Your claim then means very little, and you've then obscured actual harassment, and probably created some backlash. It is a case of crying wolf.

 

[RavenSky]

^^^ That

Yes, exactly that. It is an attempt to show that if you over expand your definition to include what a reasonable person would not see as harassment, you can then show "harassment" to be everywhere all the time. Your claim then means very little, and you've then obscured actual harassment, and probably created some backlash. It is a case of crying wolf.

So you fully acknowledge trying to minimize the reality and adverse effects of sexual harassment against women. I see.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So you fully acknowledge trying to minimize the reality and adverse effects of sexual harassment against women. I see.

Absolutely. I try to minimize the reality and adverse affects of all bad things. The less often they happen and the less bad the effects are, the better.

 

[laughing dog]

^^^ That

Yes, exactly that. It is an attempt to show that if you over expand your definition to include what a reasonable person would not see as harassment, you can then show "harassment" to be everywhere all the time.

No, because a reasonable person would not claim that telling someone to smile is not telling someone to do something.

Minimizing harassment by unreasonably and stupidly using a false equivalence is really just another example of crybullying.

 

[Gun Nut]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag93LcdYIvg[/YOUTUBE]


Someone round these guys up with a lynch mob.

 

[RavenSky]

So you fully acknowledge trying to minimize the reality and adverse effects of sexual harassment against women. I see.

Absolutely. I try to minimize the reality and adverse affects of all bad things. The less often they happen and the less bad the effects are, the better.

Pretending the problem doesn't exist is not the same as helping said problem happen less often.

If you really wanted to help minimize sexual harassment, you would stop insisting on doing the very thing that can be part of the problem... like stop telling women how they should look and/or feel.

 

[WAB]

This whole "Smile" thing is another derail from the real point that the harassment is real and unending.

While I didn't start the Smile thing, I entered into it; but it's hardly a derail.

Everyone who hasn't been living under a rock, and isn't mentally deficient, knows that harassment is real and ongoing (unending? Who knows - maybe in our far future it will end?).

The Smile thing is about what constitutes harassment, not a swerving away from nor a denial of the fact that harassment exists.

 

[laughing dog]

So you fully acknowledge trying to minimize the reality and adverse effects of sexual harassment against women. I see.

Absolutely. I try to minimize the reality and adverse affects of all bad things. The less often they happen and the less bad the effects are, the better.

Pretending the problem doesn't exist is not the same as helping said problem happen less often.

If you really wanted to help minimize sexual harassment, you would stop insisting on doing the very thing that can be part of the problem... like stop telling women how they should look and/or feel.

^^^^^^^ That ^^^^^^^

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Pretending the problem doesn't exist is not the same as helping said problem happen less often.

I'm not pretending anything doesn't exist. That was your failed attempt at word play.

Accurately measuring something is a step towards helping to fix it however. Exaggerating to the point of crying wolf isn't, in my humble opinion, the best idea.

If you really wanted to help minimize sexual harassment, you would stop insisting on doing the very thing that can be part of the problem

Should I stop breathing? Bad people breathe. Maybe I shouldn't do what they do, ya? Do you see your error in logic? Naw, I won't hold my breath.

like stop telling women how they should look and/or feel.

Smile! You're on candid camera!

Grey skies are gonna clear up. Put on a happy face.

Don't worry, be happy

Cheers everyone!

 

[Gun Nut]

agreed. Telling a person what to do is rude. It is much better to let them know how you feel and let that have whatever impact that has.
So, in stead of telling someone to smile, tell them that they look much more attractive with a smile than without one and that people are generally happier with a promotion than without one.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

agreed. Telling a person what to do is rude. It is much better to let them know how you feel and let that have whatever impact that has.
So, in stead of telling someone to smile, tell them that they look much more attractive with a smile than without one and that people are generally happier with a promotion than without one.

Ya ... telling some girl on the street that she'd look more attractive with a smile would be worse than just telling her to smile.

 

[ruby sparks]

If 'don't worry, be happy' was ok to say in general, surely someone would have made it into a hit record by now. Just sayin'.

 

[RavenSky]

I'm not pretending anything doesn't exist.

Insisting that the very real experience of having men accost us on the street demanding that we smile for them is not part of the problem is, in fact, pretending it doesn't exist. Women - real women - women on this board - have told you repeatedly that this has happened to us. And we have told you what too often happens when we fail to respond like the demure little puppets these men expect us to be.

It is NOT a standard innocuous greeting like you are pretending it is. Even in its most benign version, it is wrong to tell another human being how they should look, think or feel. And in the context of the OP, IT IS FUCKING SCARY and sometimes even dangerous.

Accurately measuring something is a step towards helping to fix it however. Exaggerating to the point of crying wolf isn't, in my humble opinion, the best idea.

You pretending that it is an exaggeration is not a step to fixing anything.

Should I stop breathing? Bad people breathe. Maybe I shouldn't do what they do, ya? Do you see your error in logic? Naw, I won't hold my breath.

It is YOUR logic that is faulty

 

[ruby sparks]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag93LcdYIvg[/YOUTUBE]


Someone round these guys up with a lynch mob.

In those dapper outfits, they appear to be wealthy. That might improve their chances of not offending women by saying, 'hey, smile'.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Insisting that the very real experience of having men accost us on the street demanding that we smile for them is not part of the problem is, in fact, pretending it doesn't exist.

I know you can't see it. But I never said men chasing women demanding they do something and threatening them after they don't isn't a problem. What I said was that saying the word "smile" to people isn't in and of itself wrong.

It is NOT a standard innocuous greeting like you are pretending it is.

I disagree. It often is a completely innocuous greeting, and often demands less of a response than "hello". Your demand that I should think otherwise violates your own statement that it is wrong to tell another human being how they should look, think or feel.

You pretending that it is an exaggeration is not a step to fixing anything.

To demand that saying "smile" is always harassment is indeed exaggerating the meaning of the word harassment.

 

[Gun Nut]

I agree, Jolly... Some people are too easily triggered into their favorite response to their pet peeve.

someone said smile, let me bust out my don't tell me what to do rant.

 

[RavenSky]

I never said men chasing women demanding they do something and threatening them after they don't isn't a problem. What I said was that saying the word "smile" to people isn't in and of itself wrong.

I am quite aware that you keep saying that. The problem is that you are wrong because even if it doesn't escalate to the man being a fuckwit, telling another human being you don't know well how they should look or act or feel is wrong.

You said you don't tell another man he should cry even when you think the situation warrants it. So why would you tell him to smile? Or be angry? Or feel/display any other possible emotion? You don't.

I disagree. It often is a completely innocuous greeting, and often demands less of a response than "hello".

Prove it. Show me factual evidence of any society wherein people say "Smile!" at strangers in the street as a normal innocuous form of greeting.

Your demand that I should think otherwise violates your own statement that it is wrong to tell another human being how they should look, think or feel.

I haven't told you how to look or feel, and I don't give a furry-rat's ass what you "think". You can believe whatever absurd and false crap you want. But I don't have to accept it as a fact, and will continue to say it is false.

You pretending that it is an exaggeration is not a step to fixing anything.

To demand that saying "smile" is always harassment is indeed exaggerating the meaning of the word harassment.

And you again claiming that anyone said this is an example of another false statement by you that you refuse to support with evidence.

 

[Arctish]

I know you can't see it. But I never said men chasing women demanding they do something and threatening them after they don't isn't a problem. What I said was that saying the word "smile" to people isn't in and of itself wrong.



I disagree. It often is a completely innocuous greeting, and often demands less of a response than "hello". Your demand that I should think otherwise violates your own statement that it is wrong to tell another human being how they should look, think or feel.

You pretending that it is an exaggeration is not a step to fixing anything.

To demand that saying "smile" is always harassment is indeed exaggerating the meaning of the word harassment.

If "smile" was a standard greeting in our culture then it wouldn't be seen as anything other than a standard greeting. But it isn't.

I have never heard a man say "smile" to another man in passing. Not even among friends. I have heard men include it as part of a larger piece of advice, but it's never unsolicited advice. In my experience, men don't tell men to smile.

I have been told to smile by random men. In one case it was especially jarring. I was talking about my job experience as a supervisor of 12-15 people and an assistant manager in a small store when the guy suddenly told me to smile. I reflexively did but at the same time I was thinking "wtf?, I'm being serious here". It really came across as him telling me to make myself pretty for him.


So with that in mind:

Hey, Jolly.

Dance.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hey, Jolly.

Dance.

I do have happy feet.