Women and girls are harassed relentlessly from a young age, government report says - REBOOT

[TSwizzle]

So then how about we give people who act friendly the benefit of the doubt rather than rushing to judgment of ulterior motives? And yes, men do get told to smile sometimes too, as George Carlin pointed out.

The request for a (attractive) female to smile is an obvious bullshit ice breaker/pick up tactic. Can't women just go about their day without hearing this lame bullshit several times a day ? It must be infuriating having to to put up with this shit just walking down the street. Just stop it. It's lame and can also be threatening.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Where do you get all the garbage that it does something to my mind? Project much?

From this:

the fact that such men do not regard their targets as individual with autonomy, hopes, dreams, and thoughts and feelings of of their own and are entitled to live their lives as they see fit without the intrusion of random strange males.

And now this:

Clearly women are not entitled to their own thoughts, feelings, emotions, wishes, hopes and dreams in Jolly’s world. Nope we’re supposed to be flattered by whatever attention anyone with a penis wants to give us—and acquiesce. With a smile, of course, and gratitude in our hearts!

That's an awful lot of things you have decided to read into your head based off a simple "smile!". You didn't answer if "hello" also does this to you.

Oh, and hello Toni. Smile!

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The request for a (attractive) female to smile is an obvious bullshit ice breaker/pick up tactic.

Saying "smile" isn't necessarily a request. It can be a simple greeting and wishing well to somebody. Nor is it restricted to attractive women, not should it be restricted from them or anyone else.

Sure, it can be an icebreaker. Same is true of "hello" or "have a nice day" whatever. They can also be throw away lines in passing. And what's wrong with icebreakers anyway? Are we to all be cold and callous towards one another?

Sure, it can also be a pickup line, and an awfully tame one. But it isn't always so, even when directed at an attractive person. So why not give people the benefit of the doubt instead of presuming and judging them for it?

Can't women just go about their day without hearing this lame bullshit several times a day ? It must be infuriating having to to put up with this shit just walking down the street. Just stop it. It's lame and can also be threatening.

How are people supposed to tell who is so fragile that they cant tolerate a hello or a "smile" no matter how well intentioned? Maybe the Muslims have it right with marking them with burkas.

Hello. Smile! Have a great day!

Oh the horror!

 

[laughing dog]

The request for a (attractive) female to smile is an obvious bullshit ice breaker/pick up tactic.

Saying "smile" isn't necessarily a request. It can be a simple greeting and wishing well to somebody. Nor is it restricted to attractive women, not should it be restricted from them or anyone else.

Sure, it can be an icebreaker. Same is true of "hello" or "have a nice day" whatever. They can also be throw away lines in passing. And what's wrong with icebreakers anyway? Are we to all be cold and callous towards one another?

Sure, it can also be a pickup line, and an awfully tame one. But it isn't always so, even when directed at an attractive person. So why not give people the benefit of the doubt instead of presuming and judging them for it?

Coming from someone who goes into a crybully meltdown when someone generalizes about men, that is more than just ironic.

 

[TSwizzle]

Saying "smile" isn't necessarily a request. It can be a simple greeting and wishing well to somebody. Nor is it restricted to attractive women, not should it be restricted from them or anyone else.

Morons loitering on street corners do not request smiles because they are wishing random women well. Nobody is buying that bullshit. Who does that anyway ? It's dumb.

How are people supposed to tell who is so fragile that they cant tolerate a hello or a "smile" no matter how well intentioned?

It's nothing to do with being fragile. It's must be tiresome hearing that same bullshit multiple times a day, day after day. Can't these morons loitering on the street saying smile to random women keep their mouths shut and let women alone ? What is the intention of a man saying smile to a random woman. WTF is that all about ?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Can't these morons loitering on the street saying smile to random women keep their mouths shut and let women alone ? What is the intention of a man saying smile to a random woman. WTF is that all about ?

Are you restricting this to men loitering in dark alleys on the street? I wasn't.

 

[Toni]

The request for a (attractive) female to smile is an obvious bullshit ice breaker/pick up tactic.

Saying "smile" isn't necessarily a request.

It's not taken as a 'request.' More like intrusive demand. Neither of which are appropriate from a stranger on the street.

It can be a simple greeting and wishing well to somebody. Nor is it restricted to attractive women, not should it be restricted from them or anyone else.

It's definitely not restricted to attractive women and it's definitely not a simple greeting and wishing someone well. It's demanding a particular response from unsolicited contact from a stranger on the street.

Sure, it can be an icebreaker. Same is true of "hello" or "have a nice day" whatever. They can also be throw away lines in passing. And what's wrong with icebreakers anyway? Are we to all be cold and callous towards one another?

Hello or Have a Nice Day are fine and tend not to be directed at only one gender. They are also not demanding a particular response from a stranger.

Sure, it can also be a pickup line, and an awfully tame one. But it isn't always so, even when directed at an attractive person. So why not give people the benefit of the doubt instead of presuming and judging them for it?

I don't think it's even intended as a pick up line. Surely no one is that clueless.

If you want to be friendly, why not say hello? Or simply smile? Which is a much better way to elicit a smile from someone else: smile.

Can't women just go about their day without hearing this lame bullshit several times a day ? It must be infuriating having to to put up with this shit just walking down the street. Just stop it. It's lame and can also be threatening.

How are people supposed to tell who is so fragile that they cant tolerate a hello or a "smile" no matter how well intentioned? Maybe the Muslims have it right with marking them with burkas.

It's called social skills + manners. Try it. If you drop the Islamophobia, you might find you have sufficient emotional resources to manage both improved social skills and decent manners.

Hello. Smile! Have a great day!

Oh the horror!

What a dick move. But not the least unexpected. FFS, in a thread where people are discussing how unwelcome women find such remarks, you feel compelled to make that remark to a woman. That speaks volumes about your own fragility that you cannot bear to be told that some behavior is unwelcome by women.

- - - Updated - - -

Can't these morons loitering on the street saying smile to random women keep their mouths shut and let women alone ? What is the intention of a man saying smile to a random woman. WTF is that all about ?

Are you restricting this to men loitering in dark alleys on the street? I wasn't.

Is a street the same thing as a dark alley in your part of Canada? It's not in the US.

 

[TSwizzle]

Are you restricting this to men loitering in dark alleys on the street? I wasn't.

I don't think it makes any difference, they could be loitering by the produce stand and it would still be obnoxious. And creepy.

 

[Worldtraveller]

The request for a (attractive) female to smile is an obvious bullshit ice breaker/pick up tactic.

Saying "smile" isn't necessarily a request. It can be a simple greeting and wishing well to somebody. Nor is it restricted to attractive women, not should it be restricted from them or anyone else.

Sure, it can be an icebreaker. Same is true of "hello" or "have a nice day" whatever. They can also be throw away lines in passing. And what's wrong with icebreakers anyway? Are we to all be cold and callous towards one another?

Sure, it can also be a pickup line, and an awfully tame one. But it isn't always so, even when directed at an attractive person. So why not give people the benefit of the doubt instead of presuming and judging them for it?

Coming from someone who goes into a crybully meltdown when someone generalizes about men, that is more than just ironic.

Also, as has been pointed out and ignored by JP, history.

But he's succeeded, once again, in making this thread about him and his fragile snowflake ego and completely derail it from the topic.

 

[RavenSky]

Second, yes, while you are right, it is not necessarily gender stereotyping, but there is scientific evidence that women are expected to smile more than men.

So then how about we give people who act friendly the benefit of the doubt rather than rushing to judgment of ulterior motives? And yes, men do get told to smile sometimes too, as George Carlin pointed out.

How about people "who act friendly" don't demand shit of other people.

Genuinely acting friendly is putting a big smile on your own face, not demanding that others must smile in return.

I can't believe an adult needs this explained to him.

 

[bilby]

TBut on a lesser note, the dumbest ones were where as she passed by someone just said, 'hey, smile'. Wtf. Like, what, women should go around smiling necessarily? To what? Make themselves seem even more demure and appealing to men?

Why do people always rush to the conclusion that they want them to smile so they are more pleasing to men? Couldn't there be other reasons to suggest to somebody that they smile?

Are "don't worry, be happy", "When you're smiling", and "Put on a happy face" songs of misogyny?

How about "have a nice day?"

Reminds me of an old George Carlin bit where he said he hates when people tell him to "have a nice day" because it puts pressure on him to do so.

I believe it was Winston Churchill, who on a visit to the USA, became so annoyed by being constantly told to 'have a nice day', that he would retort 'I have made other plans'.

But 'have a nice day' is how you end an interaction with a person you had a prior reason to speak with.

Saying 'smile' breaks the implied contract of big city life - no interaction with strangers other than for commercial transactions, or in an emergency.

Big cities are full of people. Interaction with every person you pass in the street would be impossible. So everyone ignores everyone else. To do otherwise is hugely rude and uncivilised.

 

[laughing dog]

Coming from someone who goes into a crybully meltdown when someone generalizes about men, that is more than just ironic.

Also, as has been pointed out and ignored by JP, history.

But he's succeeded, once again, in making this thread about him and his fragile snowflake ego and completely derail it from the topic.

And this type of argument (quibbling over very minor details) is used to diminish the entire topic of women enduring persistent harassment. At the minimum, it shows a level of disregard toward women.

 

[ruby sparks]

Saying 'smile' breaks the implied contract of big city life - no interaction with strangers other than for commercial transactions, or in an emergency.

Big cities are full of people. Interaction with every person you pass in the street would be impossible. So everyone ignores everyone else. To do otherwise is hugely rude and uncivilised.

It's not just that. Yes, it's true what you say about people non-interacting, but there are ways of interacting and other ways of interacting, and we are talking about one in particular. Another type might be smiling. People do this, even in large cities, to people they don't know. I'm not saying it's commonplace in all settings, but it's not totally unusual. I've both done it and experienced it, in London for example.

Imagine you are sitting on a crowded underground train and there is a person opposite you, a complete stranger, or someone beside you on an aeroplane that you have never met before. There is a big difference between a brief, polite smile and saying 'hey, smile' to them.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The T-shirt for modern women in the big city. "Shut up Leave me alone Go away".

 

[ruby sparks]

In my opinion, this phenomenon of trying to engage an attractive passing woman in conversation, or just saying something, is not unrelated to the phenomenon of sending dick picks, in that there is, I think, a common component, some men apparently not understanding how something they do is likely to be received, not understanding the 'rules of engagement' (or ignoring them). I'm willing to bet that in many cases, the men actually think that either (a) the behaviour will be welcomed or (b) that even if they realise it's not likely to be welcomed, there is at least a chance that it might, even if it's an outside chance. Maybe one day they will strike it lucky. If you're not in you can't win. Etc.

Allied to which, and not to excuse such behaviour, but males of our species are in competition (with other males) for access to females, and as far as I know always have been, just like males of many other species, and this leads to males sometimes employing bold strategies. And, those with the least to offer a female (in terms of things that might attract her, such as wealth and status, but also wit, understanding and others) often have to employ the boldest, most opportunistic strategies of all, especially if they also lack creativity and guile. Again, as in many other species.

This is only a general rule. There are exceptions, and other scenarios. For example, a high status wealthy man is not necessarily going to be 'better behaved' just because he can attract women more easily, because what he may and often does seek is to have as many women as possible.

 

[Toni]

In my opinion, this phenomenon of trying to engage a passing woman in conversation or just saying something is not unrelated to the phenomenon of sending dick picks, in that there is, I think, a common component, some men apparently not understanding how something they do is likely to be received, not understanding the 'rules of engagement' (or ignoring them). I'm willing to bet that in many cases, the men actually think that either (a) the behaviour will be welcomed or (b) that even if they realise it's not likely to be welcomed, there is at least a chance that it might, even if it's an outside chance. Maybe one day they will strike it lucky. If you're not in you can't win. Etc.

Allied to which, and not to excuse such behaviour, but males of our species are in competition (with other males) for access to females, and as far as I know always have been, just like males of many other species, and this leads to males sometimes employing bold strategies. And, those with the least to offer a female (in terms of things that might attract her, such as wealth and status, but also wit, understanding and others) often have to employ the boldest strategies of all, especially if they lack creativity and guile. Again, as in many other species.

I think there is a not insignificant proportion of such men who do know that it is unwelcome and creepy to the woman and choose to do it anyway, sometimes specifically for that reason. Look at how few men were interested when the woman in the video returned interest. Sure, a bunch simply did not think things through, but it appeared to me that the men felt that they had the right to say whatever they wanted to any woman who passed by and to demand whatever response they wanted. This is not 'showing interest.' It is showing hostility. And only partially unconscious hostility.

I've seen--and been the object of men acting awfully hostile when I ignored them. Some of the responses to myself and other women in this thread have been downright hostile simply because we say yeah, this happens, and it's creepy and exhausting and men should stop this shit (paraphrased here).

A special thank you to all the men who have stepped up and also said that this is not being friendly or interested but needs to stop.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hello or Have a Nice Day are fine and tend not to be directed at only one gender. They are also not demanding a particular response from a stranger.

I don't accept that "smile!" is only directed at one gender. That would be a sad world to live in. I also don't accept that saying Hello doesn't usually prompt a response. If you say hello to somebody, most people will say hello back.

If you want to be friendly, why not say hello? Or simply smile? Which is a much better way to elicit a smile from someone else: smile.

It is nice to hear that this wouldn't offend you. I asked before and you didn't answer. I thought maybe because the answer was yes. I posted a video earlier where a woman took offence to hello, much for the same reasoning that you take offence to "smile".

Hello. Smile! Have a great day!

Oh the horror!

What a dick move.

You're welcome. I wonder if you used the word "dick" there consciously. I wonder how you would respond if I called you a "pussy" for not being able to handle a "smile".

That speaks volumes about your own fragility that you cannot bear to be told that some behavior is unwelcome by women.

I can bear to be told pretty much anything. I just don't bow down to everything. I'm not shouting at you. I'm not treating you as not having agency. You've got way more here than I do. Nor do you speak for all women, regardless of how very very badly you may wish to.

Hello. Smile. Have a nice day. Maybe I should adopt a happy face avatar. Oh the horror that would be eh?

 

[ruby sparks]

In my opinion, this phenomenon of trying to engage a passing woman in conversation or just saying something is not unrelated to the phenomenon of sending dick picks, in that there is, I think, a common component, some men apparently not understanding how something they do is likely to be received, not understanding the 'rules of engagement' (or ignoring them). I'm willing to bet that in many cases, the men actually think that either (a) the behaviour will be welcomed or (b) that even if they realise it's not likely to be welcomed, there is at least a chance that it might, even if it's an outside chance. Maybe one day they will strike it lucky. If you're not in you can't win. Etc.

Allied to which, and not to excuse such behaviour, but males of our species are in competition (with other males) for access to females, and as far as I know always have been, just like males of many other species, and this leads to males sometimes employing bold strategies. And, those with the least to offer a female (in terms of things that might attract her, such as wealth and status, but also wit, understanding and others) often have to employ the boldest strategies of all, especially if they lack creativity and guile. Again, as in many other species.

I think there is a not insignificant proportion of such men who do know that it is unwelcome and creepy to the woman and choose to do it anyway, sometimes specifically for that reason. Look at how few men were interested when the woman in the video returned interest. Sure, a bunch simply did not think things through, but it appeared to me that the men felt that they had the right to say whatever they wanted to any woman who passed by and to demand whatever response they wanted. This is not 'showing interest.' It is showing hostility. And only partially unconscious hostility.

I've seen--and been the object of men acting awfully hostile when I ignored them. Some of the responses to myself and other women in this thread have been downright hostile simply because we say yeah, this happens, and it's creepy and exhausting and men should stop this shit (paraphrased here).

I imagine you are right. Possibly I was only highlighting one plausible factor. Though I have read around the subject this last day or two and some (psychologists) for example have said similar.

As to hostility when you ignore them, yes, but that's an after the fact reaction, which might be slightly different to their hopes or intentions initially, which is what I was talking about.

As to hostility before any rejection........I don't know. In some cases, sure, but my guess would be that such things are more often a sales pitch. But yes, feeling one has the right to say whatever they wanted to any woman who passed by and to demand whatever response they wanted could be involved in some cases. Again, I am having to speculate on the differences there might be between UK and USA.

I did not notice how some men didn't remain interested when she returned interest, I must admit. I didn't notice either of the women returning much positive (reciprocal or friendly) interest? Which video?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Saying 'smile' breaks the implied contract of big city life - no interaction with strangers other than for commercial transactions, or in an emergency.

Big cities are full of people. Interaction with every person you pass in the street would be impossible. So everyone ignores everyone else. To do otherwise is hugely rude and uncivilised.

I see that. I find it hilariously stupid. And even moreso that people can't just ignore friendliness. They have to judge it as hostile and put on a mean spirit in response to it.

Seriously, who is more of an asshole when one person says "Smile " and the other responds "Asshole! How dare you tell me to smile! You must be [insert a bunch of negative assumptions and derogatory statements about the first person]"?

Sorry folks. I vote the latter.

It is even funnier with the case of "hello".

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6N3LwZA2TI[/youtube]

He says "Hello". She says "Bitch, don't say hello to a woman you dunno", then proceeds to accuse him of sexual harassment, calls him a "fat motherfucker" and then "fucking drunk" and then goes on to accuse him of racism for no apparent reason. Is he harassing her?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Getting this back on topic...

Does saying "smile " to somebody count to you as "relentless harassment"?

I can't tell with some of you here anymore.