Women and girls are harassed relentlessly from a young age, government report says - REBOOT

[starwater]

Sure, he could have just been trying to be polite, gallant, even. But it ends up undermining the authority of the woman, even if that were not his conscious intention. Once men start to think of a particular woman or a group of human beings (female, Hispanic, Black, White, whatever) as needing or expecting special assistance, then however unintentionally, that particular woman or group of human beings begins to be perceived as less tough, less capable.

And yet somehow you don't see illiberals and modern feminists doing this? We've gone from "anything you can do, I can do" to trigger warnings, safe spaces, and language police.

Imagine it this way: Suppose you are the father of a child in diapers. You are an active participant in all aspects of your child's care and feeding. You take the child to interview a new daycare facility. During the interview, and while you are holding your child, the child suddenly and obviously needs a diaper change. One of the female workers offers to change your child's diaper instead of asking if you'd like to use their diaper changing station. This could be an over eager potential employee looking to be helpful--or it could be signaling that you, as the father, rather than as the mother, might be less comfortable changing your own child's smelly diaper. It might be meant kindly, but it seems predicated on the assumption that the father is less comfortable or less willing to deal with common, everyday messes that come with child rearing. In the same situation, in the unlikely event that the female employee would offer to change the child's diaper for the mother, a woman could feel reasonably confident that her competence as a parent/caregiver of a small child is not being questioned. For a father? It's one of those situations that as much as most parents wouldn't mind ducking out of changing a smelly diaper, for the dad to do so here would be kind of like saying that he's just a 'typical man who doesn't like dealing with a kid's diapers or other inconveniences of childrearing.' And would kind of reinforce a bad stereotype.

Or we could just not read that in and not presume the worst in people. If somebody offered to change my baby's diaper, I would appreciate the gesture. My gender wouldn't even occur to me in that moment. Does my holding a door for a man mean politeness, but my holding a door for a woman mean I question her competency or strength?

Do you run up ahead of a man and hold a door open for him?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And yet somehow you don't see illiberals and modern feminists doing this? We've gone from "anything you can do, I can do" to trigger warnings, safe spaces, and language police.



Or we could just not read that in and not presume the worst in people. If somebody offered to change my baby's diaper, I would appreciate the gesture. My gender wouldn't even occur to me in that moment. Does my holding a door for a man mean politeness, but my holding a door for a woman mean I question her competency or strength?

Do you run up ahead of a man and hold a door open for him?

Only if he is carrying something. Same with a woman. Seems a courteous thing to do, ya?

 

[starwater]

And yet somehow you don't see illiberals and modern feminists doing this? We've gone from "anything you can do, I can do" to trigger warnings, safe spaces, and language police.



Or we could just not read that in and not presume the worst in people. If somebody offered to change my baby's diaper, I would appreciate the gesture. My gender wouldn't even occur to me in that moment. Does my holding a door for a man mean politeness, but my holding a door for a woman mean I question her competency or strength?

Do you run up ahead of a man and hold a door open for him?

Only if he is carrying something. Same with a woman. Seems a courteous thing to do, ya?

Correct. So why do you object when women think it's degrading for men to just hold the door because they are female - implying they are incapable of operating a door?

 

[WAB]

Only if he is carrying something. Same with a woman. Seems a courteous thing to do, ya?

Correct. So why do you object when women think it's degrading for men to just hold the door because they are female - implying they are incapable of operating a door?

I doubt any man ever held a door for a woman because he thought she was incapable of operating a door (unless she was literally, visibly disabled).

Holding a door, for a man or a woman, is a common tradition, and a simple courtesy.


***

Also, I've worked predominately with women my whole life (healthcare). I've been told to "smile" thousands of times, because I tend to be a gloomy-Gus at work, by women. Never once, not once, did I consider it offensive, or remotely sexual.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Only if he is carrying something. Same with a woman. Seems a courteous thing to do, ya?

Correct. So why do you object when women think it's degrading for men to just hold the door because they are female - implying they are incapable of operating a door?

I object to the assumption that this is the case, unless you've got something more to go on than a guy is holding a door.

 

[ruby sparks]

Also, I've worked predominately with women my whole life (healthcare). I've been told to "smile" thousands of times, because I tend to be a gloomy-Gus at work, by women. Never once, not once, did I consider it offensive, or remotely sexual.

I gotta say WAB, you must be one tolerant guy. I used to have chronic depression. If someone, man woman or gnu, said, 'hey smile' to me, I wanted to thump them.

No that's not true. It just made me feel even worse, to be honest. I used to try so hard not to let my depression show in public or social situations. Someone saying that made me feel I wasn't succeeding.

 

[WAB]

Also, I've worked predominately with women my whole life (healthcare). I've been told to "smile" thousands of times, because I tend to be a gloomy-Gus at work, by women. Never once, not once, did I consider it offensive, or remotely sexual.

I gotta say WAB, you must be one tolerant guy. I used to have chronic depression. If someone, man woman or gnu, said, 'hey smile' to me, I wanted to thump them.

No that's not true. It just made me feel even worse, to be honest. I used to try so hard not to let my depression show in public or social situations. Someone saying that made me feel I wasn't succeeding.

Perhaps I was never bothered by that because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got.

I sympathize with people who are treated as sex objects, and I can understand how and why it's offensive, but I have no clue what the experience must be like.

To those who have no clue what it's like to be on the other side of things: to be completely unattractive sexually is devastating, and is also a burden.

 

[ruby sparks]

Also, I've worked predominately with women my whole life (healthcare). I've been told to "smile" thousands of times, because I tend to be a gloomy-Gus at work, by women. Never once, not once, did I consider it offensive, or remotely sexual.

I gotta say WAB, you must be one tolerant guy. I used to have chronic depression. If someone, man woman or gnu, said, 'hey smile' to me, I wanted to thump them.

No that's not true. It just made me feel even worse, to be honest. I used to try so hard not to let my depression show in public or social situations. Someone saying that made me feel I wasn't succeeding.

Perhaps I was never bothered by that is because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got.

I sympathize with people who are treated as sex objects, and I can understand how and why it's offensive, but I have no clue what the experience must be like. To be completely unattractive sexually is devastating, and is also a burden.

Gotcha.

So guys who ask passing attractive women they don't know to smile should say it to women who they don't find attractive or who aren't perhaps physically attractive.

That might indeed be a good thing. Or better at least. Dunno though. They might be also depressed and react like I did, feel worse.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Being beautiful, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention, is somewhat like being rich, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention.

 

[WAB]

Perhaps I was never bothered by that is because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got.

I sympathize with people who are treated as sex objects, and I can understand how and why it's offensive, but I have no clue what the experience must be like. To be completely unattractive sexually is devastating, and is also a burden.

Gotcha.

So guys who ask passing attractive women they don't know to smile should say it to women who they don't find attractive or who aren't perhaps physically attractive.

No, that's not what I meant. I'm just giving my own testimony. I don't mean to imply anything about what people should do. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[starwater]

Being beautiful, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention, is somewhat like being rich, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention.

Try it for your whole life (while also trying to be sure you won't be assaulted in the process) and see how you like it.

 

[laughing dog]

Being beautiful, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention, is somewhat like being rich, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention.

I strongly suspect this is not based on experience or evidence.

 

[Toni]

Perhaps I was never bothered by that is because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got.

I sympathize with people who are treated as sex objects, and I can understand how and why it's offensive, but I have no clue what the experience must be like. To be completely unattractive sexually is devastating, and is also a burden.

Gotcha.

So guys who ask passing attractive women they don't know to smile should say it to women who they don't find attractive or who aren't perhaps physically attractive.

That might indeed be a good thing. Or better at least. Dunno though. They might be also depressed and react like I did, feel worse.

Guys who pass or are passed by women they would like to smile should: smile in a friendly way.

That is all.

 

[Toni]

Being beautiful, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention, is somewhat like being rich, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention.

Try it for your whole life (while also trying to be sure you won't be assaulted in the process) and see how you like it.

One need not be beautiful nor catered to nor rich to get too much attention.

Or unwelcome attention.

Speaking from personal experience here.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Being beautiful, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention, is somewhat like being rich, catered to, and getting a bit too much attention.

Try it for your whole life (while also trying to be sure you won't be assaulted in the process) and see how you like it.

Which? Being beautiful or being rich? Or both? What you wrote could apply to either. Both make you have something orhers value and put targets on you. Both are easier than their opposites though.

 

[ruby sparks]

Perhaps I was never bothered by that is because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got.

I sympathize with people who are treated as sex objects, and I can understand how and why it's offensive, but I have no clue what the experience must be like. To be completely unattractive sexually is devastating, and is also a burden.

Gotcha.

So guys who ask passing attractive women they don't know to smile should say it to women who they don't find attractive or who aren't perhaps physically attractive.

That might indeed be a good thing. Or better at least. Dunno though. They might be also depressed and react like I did, feel worse.

Guys who pass or are passed by women they would like to smile should: smile in a friendly way.

That is all.

Yes, or nod. Or do and say nothing. Someone passing by in the street is more likely to be doing other things and have other priorities and things on their mind than talking to or engaging with random strangers. This is true even if, for example, the person trying to get their attention is, for example, trying to get them to donate to a charity or good cause, which I know is not the situation we are generally talking about here and I am only using it to illustrate a general point that even in 'warrantable' or benign situations, similar factors regarding privacy and interruption might also be in play, in other ways.

In a different setting, a bar perhaps, or a sunny park where people are at their leisure (a park bench at lunchtime for example), it may be more acceptable, but even then, anyone making an approach would still have to follow reasonable 'rules of engagement' and understand that the woman might not be up for an interaction, no matter what it is or by whom. Being pushy is often not a good strategy. I'm still wondering if on average, being bolder (more pushy) is something American men, for example, are, compared to, say, British men. Another stereotype is the 'Latin' man, as in for example Italians. Or we could look at Muslim countries, where harassment of women is even more prevalent and serious.

Though on top of all of that, there is some truth in the idea that even when women are open to approach, it will depend who is making it as well as how it is made, as per some of the social experiments cited earlier. A man who is potentially attractive to a (single/available) woman may elicit a positive response and another man seen as less desirable may elicit a negative one, even when they do and say the same things. 'Undesirable' (eg poor, ugly, etc) men are therefore at a disadvantage, all other things being equal, and may feel they have to try harder and/or take more risks as a result. This can in some cases also lead to more seriously undesirable behaviours, such as pestering, stalking, assaulting and even raping, and of course a woman cannot know what someone's intent is, so an unwelcome approach, even if only brief and verbal, or even just a look, can raise concerns. Women have to be careful, every day, in many situations, in ways that men generally don't. And of course, it goes without saying that being 'undesirable' is not by any means the only scenario which leads to such things, it's only one plausible candidate.

There are other ways in which men also have to be careful (eg the risk of physical assault) but even then it is more often because of other men.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Also, I've worked predominately with women my whole life (healthcare). I've been told to "smile" thousands of times, because I tend to be a gloomy-Gus at work, by women. Never once, not once, did I consider it offensive, or remotely sexual.

I gotta say WAB, you must be one tolerant guy. I used to have chronic depression. If someone, man woman or gnu, said, 'hey smile' to me, I wanted to thump them.

No that's not true. It just made me feel even worse, to be honest. I used to try so hard not to let my depression show in public or social situations. Someone saying that made me feel I wasn't succeeding.

Perhaps I was never bothered by that because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got.

I sympathize with people who are treated as sex objects, and I can understand how and why it's offensive, but I have no clue what the experience must be like.

To those who have no clue what it's like to be on the other side of things: to be completely unattractive sexually is devastating, and is also a burden.

There's something else missing in this equation. If you're told to smile, if you didn't, or if you grumped, did the women ever ever yell or berate you or threaten to rape you?

See, that's one of the big parts that all the whiny ass manbabies in this thread don't get. Women who are being told to smile, specifically (as opposed to just people saying hi or similar greeting) are more than likely aware of the history and baggage that goes along with this. I could have initially forgiven JP his ignorance, since he's not from the USA, but it's long past that point for him.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I could have initially forgiven JP his ignorance, since he's not from the USA, but it's long past that point for him.

Why's that? It's not like the issues involved are somehow specific to America and don't exist in the exact same way for women in Canada.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There's something else missing in this equation. If you're told to smile, if you didn't, or if you grumped, did the women ever ever yell or berate you or threaten to rape you?

Sure, lets clamp down on every smile and hello because some women got raped after somebody said smile or hello. This makes sense. Perhaps we should also ban waving, walking on sidewalks, whistling, nods, and sitting on park benches?

 

[Toni]

There's something else missing in this equation. If you're told to smile, if you didn't, or if you grumped, did the women ever ever yell or berate you or threaten to rape you?

Sure, lets clamp down on every smile and hello because some women got raped after somebody said smile or hello. This makes sense. Perhaps we should also ban waving, walking on sidewalks, whistling, nods, and sitting on park benches?

Why not just answer the question? Does anyone ever berate you or yell at you or threaten to rape you if you don't smile on command?