Women and girls are harassed relentlessly from a young age, government report says - REBOOT

[RavenSky]

Getting this back on topic...

Does saying "smile " to somebody count to you as "relentless harassment"?

I can't tell with some of you here anymore.

No, but what some of the fucking assholes say and do after their demand that I smile is ignored does constitute harassment, which is why/how we know damned well the original demand to smile is not in any way a simple (but misguided) pleasantry.

If you are genuinely trying to be pleasant, you don't demand they must take action.

 

[starwater]

Jolly do you tell other men walking down the street to “smile”?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Jolly do you tell other men walking down the street to “smile”?

I have. I've also said hello. I even gave a high five to a kid once. What a monster, I know.

 

[phands]

Getting this back on topic...

Does saying "smile " to somebody count to you as "relentless harassment"?

I can't tell with some of you here anymore.

That's because you don't have empathy.

Telling people to smile when you don't know what their life is like is, at best, smug and glib arrogance. It's like telling a rape victim to smile because she's not pregnant. Your stance is repellent.

 

[laughing dog]

Getting this back on topic...

Does saying "smile " to somebody count to you as "relentless harassment"?

First, quibbling whether one instance is harassment in a video with many instances of harassment is not on topic. It is blatant attempt to minimize the OP topic. Especially when the quibble is obviously either incredibly stupid or dismissive about the subject.

Second, no one is saying a one time comment is relentless harassment. Taking one example and blowing it out of proportion is another blatant attempt to minimize the OP topic via cry bullying.

For some reason(s) you avoid addressing the OP topic and persist in minimizing minimize the effects of harassment on women and derailing the OP topic. A reasonable conclusion from this posting behavior is that you do not take harassment of women as a serious issue.

 

[Toni]

I don't accept that "smile!" is only directed at one gender. That would be a sad world to live in. I also don't accept that saying Hello doesn't usually prompt a response. If you say hello to somebody, most people will say hello back.



It is nice to hear that this wouldn't offend you. I asked before and you didn't answer. I thought maybe because the answer was yes. I posted a video earlier where a woman took offence to hello, much for the same reasoning that you take offence to "smile".

Hello. Smile! Have a great day!

Oh the horror!

What a dick move.

You're welcome. I wonder if you used the word "dick" there consciously. I wonder how you would respond if I called you a "pussy" for not being able to handle a "smile".

That speaks volumes about your own fragility that you cannot bear to be told that some behavior is unwelcome by women.

I can bear to be told pretty much anything. I just don't bow down to everything. I'm not shouting at you. I'm not treating you as not having agency. You've got way more here than I do. Nor do you speak for all women, regardless of how very very badly you may wish to.

Hello. Smile. Have a nice day. Maybe I should adopt a happy face avatar. Oh the horror that would be eh?

Wow.

You are utterly unable to accept another person's agency but instead must substitute your own.

And once again provide evidence in support of the OP.

Wow.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And once again provide evidence in support of the OP.

Oh dear yes. Saying smile and wishing people well is horrible and relentless harasment. Its way worse than telling people they have no empathy, want to control others or other nasty things.

Surely you should presume the worst in people, try to control them, and demand they not say smile to others. That's far more empathetic.

[You are utterly unable to accept another person's agency but instead must substitute your own.

Oh but I do accept your agency. You don't have to smile if you don't want to. You may decline of course. It isn't even a serious request so much as a wish of well being But I also decline your demands on my behaviour, and won't say you lack empathy or are a horrific person for making them.

Smile everyone! Have a great day! Don't worry. Be happy.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Getting this back on topic...

Does saying "smile " to somebody count to you as "relentless harassment"?

I can't tell with some of you here anymore.

I am sure that for women in a busy city, getting this again and again while going about your business gets old real fast. It is just a more passive aggressive manner of intruding on a woman's personal space. Apparently that message seems to be eluding some people here. Especially any young and attractive woman, are going to get unwanted attention from hordes of creeps and people they don't really care to deal with. One never knows if such encounters will be perfunctory or turn into an encounter where some male decides he aggressively will get a reaction from her.

 

[ZiprHead]

And once again provide evidence in support of the OP.

Oh dear yes. Saying smile and wishing people well is horrible and relentless harasment. Its way worse than telling people they have no empathy, want to control others or other nasty things.

Surely you should presume the worst in people, try to control them, and demand they not say smile to others. That's far more empathetic.

[You are utterly unable to accept another person's agency but instead must substitute your own.

Oh but I do accept your agency. You don't have to smile if you don't want to. You may decline of course. It isn't even a serious request so much as a wish of well being But I also decline your demands on my behaviour, and won't say you lack empathy or are a horrific person for making them. ??????

Smile everyone! Have a great day! Don't worry. Be happy.

What gives you the right to direct anyone to do anything, especially strangers on the street? Mind your own fucking business.

 

[Worldtraveller]

In my opinion, this phenomenon of trying to engage a passing woman in conversation or just saying something is not unrelated to the phenomenon of sending dick picks, in that there is, I think, a common component, some men apparently not understanding how something they do is likely to be received, not understanding the 'rules of engagement' (or ignoring them). I'm willing to bet that in many cases, the men actually think that either (a) the behaviour will be welcomed or (b) that even if they realise it's not likely to be welcomed, there is at least a chance that it might, even if it's an outside chance. Maybe one day they will strike it lucky. If you're not in you can't win. Etc.

Allied to which, and not to excuse such behaviour, but males of our species are in competition (with other males) for access to females, and as far as I know always have been, just like males of many other species, and this leads to males sometimes employing bold strategies. And, those with the least to offer a female (in terms of things that might attract her, such as wealth and status, but also wit, understanding and others) often have to employ the boldest strategies of all, especially if they lack creativity and guile. Again, as in many other species.

I think there is a not insignificant proportion of such men who do know that it is unwelcome and creepy to the woman and choose to do it anyway, sometimes specifically for that reason. Look at how few men were interested when the woman in the video returned interest. Sure, a bunch simply did not think things through, but it appeared to me that the men felt that they had the right to say whatever they wanted to any woman who passed by and to demand whatever response they wanted. This is not 'showing interest.' It is showing hostility. And only partially unconscious hostility.

I've seen--and been the object of men acting awfully hostile when I ignored them. Some of the responses to myself and other women in this thread have been downright hostile simply because we say yeah, this happens, and it's creepy and exhausting and men should stop this shit (paraphrased here).

A special thank you to all the men who have stepped up and also said that this is not being friendly or interested but needs to stop.

It's worse than that. A lot of guys know it, don't care and actually make up rules for 'hitting on women' that explicitely go against the social norms. They actively play that game (to them)...hit on lots of women, knowing they'll get rejected 99 times out of 100, but that 100th is 'worth it'.

There are sadly, entire web sites, books and even lecture circuits devoted to this twisted idea.

And people like Jolly here tacitly endorse it by defending their 'harmless' behavior.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I don't accept that "smile!" is only directed at one gender. That would be a sad world to live in. I also don't accept that saying Hello doesn't usually prompt a response. If you say hello to somebody, most people will say hello back.

So, hoe many times have you been told (by a random man that you've never met) to smile? Go on, give us a count.

I can bear to be told pretty much anything.

That doesn't seem to be the case here, does it? Your actions and words in this thread bely your empty bravado.

I'm not treating you as not having agency. You've got way more here than I do. Nor do you speak for all women, regardless of how very very badly you may wish to.

What you're doing here? You're gaslighting Toni, and the other women in this thread. You're explicitly, and very clearly, telling them that what they experience, and how they experience it, is wrong. You don't express any of this even as mildly as it wouldn't offend you. You are telling them that, regardless of their experience, they are wrong to experience things in any way that differs from how you think they should experience it.

You are most definitely not an ally to women, if this is what you really think, and how you behave. You really really need to think about this. Please, try not to reflexively get defensive and argue. Just for once, try to take ten minutes, think about what you're telling the women in this thread, and how you would feel if it were reversed.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Jolly do you tell other men walking down the street to “smile”?

I have. I've also said hello. I even gave a high five to a kid once. What a monster, I know.

I don't believe you have ever once, even thought about saying 'smile' to a random man on the street.

 

[phands]

And people like Jolly here tacitly explicitly endorse it by defending their 'harmless' behavior.

FTFY

 

[Toni]

So, hoe many times have you been told (by a random man that you've never met) to smile? Go on, give us a count.


That doesn't seem to be the case here, does it? Your actions and words in this thread bely your empty bravado.

I'm not treating you as not having agency. You've got way more here than I do. Nor do you speak for all women, regardless of how very very badly you may wish to.

What you're doing here? You're gaslighting Toni, and the other women in this thread. You're explicitly, and very clearly, telling them that what they experience, and how they experience it, is wrong. You don't express any of this even as mildly as it wouldn't offend you. You are telling them that, regardless of their experience, they are wrong to experience things in any way that differs from how you think they should experience it.

You are most definitely not an ally to women, if this is what you really think, and how you behave. You really really need to think about this. Please, try not to reflexively get defensive and argue. Just for once, try to take ten minutes, think about what you're telling the women in this thread, and how you would feel if it were reversed.

It’s only gaslighting if it works.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So, hoe many times have you been told (by a random man that you've never met) to smile? Go on, give us a count.

I haven't kept count, but more than a few. Less than an attractive woman, sure.

That doesn't seem to be the case here, does it? Your actions and words in this thread bely your empty bravado.

What bravado? Saying I see nothing wrong with saying smile is bravado in your world? Smile, Worldtraveller.

What you're doing here? You're gaslighting Toni, and the other women in this thread.

"Gaslighting"? I had to look that one up.

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.

Ok, that got a legit laugh out of me. My saying I see nothing wrong with saying smile made people question their own sanity? I had no idea I had such power here or that people here were so incredibly fragile. I don't think that's true.

You're explicitly, and very clearly, telling them that what they experience, and how they experience it, is wrong. You don't express any of this even as mildly as it wouldn't offend you. You are telling them that, regardless of their experience, they are wrong to experience things in any way that differs from how you think they should experience it.

No I'm not. I'm just disagreeing with them that people should be chastised and have the worst thought of them for saying smile. And people can have whatever experience they want. I'm not the one judging here. You are.

Just for once, try to take ten minutes, think about what you're telling the women in this thread, and how you would feel if it were reversed.

If people say hello to me and say smile? You really think it would horribly offend me and I would think the worst of them for it? Sorry, you're wrong about that. I grew up in a place where it was and I believe still is common. The lady at the place I go to lunch for says it to me almost every day. She is a friendly old lady. Should I call her a "nazi" and punch her in the face?

 

[starwater]

Jolly do you tell other men walking down the street to “smile”?

I have. I've also said hello. I even gave a high five to a kid once. What a monster, I know.

I don't believe you have ever once, even thought about saying 'smile' to a random man on the street.

Agree - I have never seen a man do it to another man. It's only done to women. It's demeaning whether you agree or not Jolly. This is how women feel and just because you decide to not agree does not make it go away.

 

[thebeave]

My experience this week. I was conducting a pre-bid meeting at a construction site. A male participating in the meeting stopped me in my pickup truck to ask if I wanted him to drive my truck around the construction site (me as passenger). No - I am perfectly capable of driving my truck on construction sites. I have been doing this for 20 years. I don;t need your help.

So, I guess your interpretation of this event is that he said that as a way to get to know you and maybe pursue you for sex. That could be construed as sexual harrassment, or at least leading up to it. It could also be that he doesn't think women are capable, confident drivers in rough terrain. That would make it a sexist comment, but not sexual harrassment. On the other hand, it could be that he was offering to be sort of a tour guide of the construction site that you may not have been familiar with, and him driving would just make it easier to get around. I would say that is just his way (clumsily, perhaps) of just being nice and friendly, and would have made the same offer to you if you were a man. Which is kind of the point some here are making, in that what constitutes sexual harrassment is somewhat ambiguous. If you were surveyed later about sexual harrassment on the job, you might note this incident, whereas his intentions were completely different from your interpretation.

 

[starwater]

It's my construction site, so I am very familiar with the roads. Men think this is friendly and being nice. My take is that it is offensive, I am not capable. This is what men don't get. I doubt that it was sexual, am 59 years old, although I am told I still very attractive.

I was the only woman at this meeting (which is the way it has been for 20 years), all of these contractors respect me and are extremely professional in my presence. This guy was new.

 

[Toni]

My experience this week. I was conducting a pre-bid meeting at a construction site. A male participating in the meeting stopped me in my pickup truck to ask if I wanted him to drive my truck around the construction site (me as passenger). No - I am perfectly capable of driving my truck on construction sites. I have been doing this for 20 years. I don;t need your help.

So, I guess your interpretation of this event is that he said that as a way to get to know you and maybe pursue you for sex. That could be construed as sexual harrassment, or at least leading up to it. It could also be that he doesn't think women are capable, confident drivers in rough terrain. That would make it a sexist comment, but not sexual harrassment. On the other hand, it could be that he was offering to be sort of a tour guide of the construction site that you may not have been familiar with, and him driving would just make it easier to get around. I would say that is just his way (clumsily, perhaps) of just being nice and friendly, and would have made the same offer to you if you were a man. Which is kind of the point some here are making, in that what constitutes sexual harrassment is somewhat ambiguous. If you were surveyed later about sexual harrassment on the job, you might note this incident, whereas his intentions were completely different from your interpretation.

Sure, he could have just been trying to be polite, gallant, even. But it ends up undermining the authority of the woman, even if that were not his conscious intention. Once men start to think of a particular woman or a group of human beings (female, Hispanic, Black, White, whatever) as needing or expecting special assistance, then however unintentionally, that particular woman or group of human beings begins to be perceived as less tough, less capable.

Imagine it this way: Suppose you are the father of a child in diapers. You are an active participant in all aspects of your child's care and feeding. You take the child to interview a new daycare facility. During the interview, and while you are holding your child, the child suddenly and obviously needs a diaper change. One of the female workers offers to change your child's diaper instead of asking if you'd like to use their diaper changing station. This could be an over eager potential employee looking to be helpful--or it could be signaling that you, as the father, rather than as the mother, might be less comfortable changing your own child's smelly diaper. It might be meant kindly, but it seems predicated on the assumption that the father is less comfortable or less willing to deal with common, everyday messes that come with child rearing. In the same situation, in the unlikely event that the female employee would offer to change the child's diaper for the mother, a woman could feel reasonably confident that her competence as a parent/caregiver of a small child is not being questioned. For a father? It's one of those situations that as much as most parents wouldn't mind ducking out of changing a smelly diaper, for the dad to do so here would be kind of like saying that he's just a 'typical man who doesn't like dealing with a kid's diapers or other inconveniences of childrearing.' And would kind of reinforce a bad stereotype.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure, he could have just been trying to be polite, gallant, even. But it ends up undermining the authority of the woman, even if that were not his conscious intention. Once men start to think of a particular woman or a group of human beings (female, Hispanic, Black, White, whatever) as needing or expecting special assistance, then however unintentionally, that particular woman or group of human beings begins to be perceived as less tough, less capable.

And yet somehow you don't see illiberals and modern feminists doing this? We've gone from "anything you can do, I can do" to trigger warnings, safe spaces, and language police.

Imagine it this way: Suppose you are the father of a child in diapers. You are an active participant in all aspects of your child's care and feeding. You take the child to interview a new daycare facility. During the interview, and while you are holding your child, the child suddenly and obviously needs a diaper change. One of the female workers offers to change your child's diaper instead of asking if you'd like to use their diaper changing station. This could be an over eager potential employee looking to be helpful--or it could be signaling that you, as the father, rather than as the mother, might be less comfortable changing your own child's smelly diaper. It might be meant kindly, but it seems predicated on the assumption that the father is less comfortable or less willing to deal with common, everyday messes that come with child rearing. In the same situation, in the unlikely event that the female employee would offer to change the child's diaper for the mother, a woman could feel reasonably confident that her competence as a parent/caregiver of a small child is not being questioned. For a father? It's one of those situations that as much as most parents wouldn't mind ducking out of changing a smelly diaper, for the dad to do so here would be kind of like saying that he's just a 'typical man who doesn't like dealing with a kid's diapers or other inconveniences of childrearing.' And would kind of reinforce a bad stereotype.

Or we could just not read that in and not presume the worst in people. If somebody offered to change my baby's diaper, I would appreciate the gesture. My gender wouldn't even occur to me in that moment. Does my holding a door for a man mean politeness, but my holding a door for a woman mean I question her competency or strength?