Women and girls are harassed relentlessly from a young age, government report says - REBOOT

[RavenSky]

Guys who pass or are passed by women they would like to smile should: smile in a friendly way. That is all.

Exactly. And vica-versa and every which way.

I don't want to speak for WAB, but I suspect he would be just as pleased (if not more so) if the women he referenced simply smiled pleasantly at him, maybe included a cheerful "good morning" rather than telling him what to do or feel (however pleasantly or with good intentions they may have done it)

 

[RavenSky]

Perhaps I was never bothered by that because if I was told to smile at least that was a form of attention. Getting attention from women never came easy for me, and I enjoyed what little I got..

There's something else missing in this equation. If you're told to smile, if you didn't, or if you grumped, did the women ever ever yell or berate you or threaten to rape you?

^^ important follow up point

 

[thebeave]

It's my construction site, so I am very familiar with the roads. Men think this is friendly and being nice. My take is that it is offensive, I am not capable. This is what men don't get. I doubt that it was sexual, am 59 years old, although I am told I still very attractive.

I was the only woman at this meeting (which is the way it has been for 20 years), all of these contractors respect me and are extremely professional in my presence. This guy was new.

OK, fair enough. Sounds like it wasn't considered sexual harrassment, but sexism. So, let's kick it up a notch. What if you got a flat tire on your truck on the construction site? Perhaps you're like me and you get about 1 or 2 flats per year and swap in the spare tire on your own, no problem. If a guy approached your truck and asked if you needed help, I assume you would be offended in this case as well. But what if you weren't knowledgeable or experienced in changing a tire, and a guy approached you with an offer of help. Would you welcome the help? Would you get pissed if the men on the site stood around and ignored you and your situation because they figure you were capable and already know how to put on the spare?

The point is, how is a guy to know? It seems like he would risk being in a classic Kobyoshi Maru situation. If he offers help he could get branded a misogynist for assuming a woman can't do a very basic, everyday thing like changing a tire. If he doesn't offer help, he could get branded a misogynist for purposely avoiding helping out a woman.

This reminds me of a situation I was in a few years ago. I was in the parking lot of a hardware store listening to the radio and writing some notes, etc and I noticed a woman a few cars away with her hood up. She seemed to be adding engine oil, but I couldn't be sure. It did look like she was struggling, though, to do whatever it was she was trying to do. I contemplated about whether I should have offered some assistance, as I know my way around a car engine reasonably well. However, I thought she could get offended for thinking that I assumed she needed help just because she was a woman working on some "mechanical thingy", and thus ruin her day perhaps. On the other hand, I thought if I did go over and help her out, she might appreciate the gesture and maybe think there are still some good men out there. And perhaps make her day. TBH, I was a bit paralyzed over what I should do, but ultimately I just started my truck and took off. To this day, I still think about the situation and am not sure. Do you think I did the right thing by taking off and leaving her to her own devices? Just curious about his from a female perspective.

 

[laughing dog]

There's something else missing in this equation. If you're told to smile, if you didn't, or if you grumped, did the women ever ever yell or berate you or threaten to rape you?

Sure, lets clamp down on every smile and hello because some women got raped after somebody said smile or hello.

The level of obtuseness that such a straw man requires is unbelievable No one is advocating this.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why not just answer the question? Does anyone ever berate you or yell at you or threaten to rape you if you don't smile on command?

I got yelled at once for not smiling, yes. But only once and by a crazy lady so I'm not sure she counts. Never been threatened rape for not smiling at people. Don't think I ever will.

(Edited)

 

[Toni]

It's my construction site, so I am very familiar with the roads. Men think this is friendly and being nice. My take is that it is offensive, I am not capable. This is what men don't get. I doubt that it was sexual, am 59 years old, although I am told I still very attractive.

I was the only woman at this meeting (which is the way it has been for 20 years), all of these contractors respect me and are extremely professional in my presence. This guy was new.

OK, fair enough. Sounds like it wasn't considered sexual harrassment, but sexism. So, let's kick it up a notch. What if you got a flat tire on your truck on the construction site? Perhaps you're like me and you get about 1 or 2 flats per year and swap in the spare tire on your own, no problem. If a guy approached your truck and asked if you needed help, I assume you would be offended in this case as well. But what if you weren't knowledgeable or experienced in changing a tire, and a guy approached you with an offer of help. Would you welcome the help? Would you get pissed if the men on the site stood around and ignored you and your situation because they figure you were capable and already know how to put on the spare?

The point is, how is a guy to know? It seems like he would risk being in a classic Kobyoshi Maru situation. If he offers help he could get branded a misogynist for assuming a woman can't do a very basic, everyday thing like changing a tire. If he doesn't offer help, he could get branded a misogynist for purposely avoiding helping out a woman.

This reminds me of a situation I was in a few years ago. I was in the parking lot of a hardware store listening to the radio and writing some notes, etc and I noticed a woman a few cars away with her hood up. She seemed to be adding engine oil, but I couldn't be sure. It did look like she was struggling, though, to do whatever it was she was trying to do. I contemplated about whether I should have offered some assistance, as I know my way around a car engine reasonably well. However, I thought she could get offended for thinking that I assumed she needed help just because she was a woman working on some "mechanical thingy", and thus ruin her day perhaps. On the other hand, I thought if I did go over and help her out, she might appreciate the gesture and maybe think there are still some good men out there. And perhaps make her day. TBH, I was a bit paralyzed over what I should do, but ultimately I just started my truck and took off. To this day, I still think about the situation and am not sure. Do you think I did the right thing by taking off and leaving her to her own devices? Just curious about his from a female perspective.

FWIW, I'm not much of an auto mechanic but I've certainly helped strangers (yes: men) jump their battery with cables that I provided, and I've helped strangers (yes, men and women both) shovel out their cars that got plowed in after a big snow. So does the woman who lives next door to me. I've also stopped after accidents to render any assistance needed.

And one time, while driving my sister's car newly given to me on a long trip back to my home, I got an unexpected flat on the interstate. It was, as they say, a dark and stormy night. I was quite tired and cursing myself for not becoming more familiar with exactly where the jack and the spare were located in this new to me car but I located both and had placed the jack but not lifted the car yet and had loosened all but one of the lug nuts which was just too tight. This was pre-cell phone days. I was quite grateful that a very nice man with greater strength than I had stopped to help get that one stubborn lug nut off. And felt stupid because he did exactly what I would have done if I had not been half brain dead after driving for 500 miles: he stomped on the lug wrench to give it enough torq to loosen the stubborn lug nut. I was grateful for the help which I think he would have offered if I had been male. I am only assuming he knew I was female. I was wearing a heavy coat and jeans and it was dark. I know that people have stopped to see if my husband (with and without me present) needed assistance when there was car trouble.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This reminds me of a situation I was in a few years ago. I was in the parking lot of a hardware store listening to the radio and writing some notes, etc and I noticed a woman a few cars away with her hood up. She seemed to be adding engine oil, but I couldn't be sure. It did look like she was struggling, though, to do whatever it was she was trying to do. I contemplated about whether I should have offered some assistance, as I know my way around a car engine reasonably well. However, I thought she could get offended for thinking that I assumed she needed help just because she was a woman working on some "mechanical thingy", and thus ruin her day perhaps. On the other hand, I thought if I did go over and help her out, she might appreciate the gesture and maybe think there are still some good men out there. And perhaps make her day. TBH, I was a bit paralyzed over what I should do, but ultimately I just started my truck and took off. To this day, I still think about the situation and am not sure. Do you think I did the right thing by taking off and leaving her to her own devices? Just curious about his from a female perspective.

That's a really sad state of affairs. Had it been a guy who looked like he was struggling with it, would you have helped him?

 

[WAB]

Guys who pass or are passed by women they would like to smile should: smile in a friendly way. That is all.

Exactly. And vica-versa and every which way.

I don't want to speak for WAB, but I suspect he would be just as pleased (if not more so) if the women he referenced simply smiled pleasantly at him, maybe included a cheerful "good morning" rather than telling him what to do or feel (however pleasantly or with good intentions they may have done it)

No, not really. Being "told" to smile was taken by me, on every occasion, as a recognition of myself as a person with the right to be happy and express joy. Hello and Good Morning are generic and we say these things to complete strangers without any real feeling: it's out of sheer habit. I can't recall a total stranger ever telling me to smile, however. These were co-workers, friends, acquaintances.

I would object to the word "told" as if it were a real demand, as it's actually not. It's a suggestion. I would also say that I do not think for a second that it's a good way to greet a complete stranger! Someone telling a random passerby to smile is a little fishy - though it hardly constitutes sexual harassment (see below before getting upset).

NOW: if any woman (or man) is being literally "told" to smile, and if such a demand is given in the tone of a threat, then yes, this would constitute harassment!

I've never heard of a man telling a woman that if she didn't smile she would be harmed, assaulted, or raped, at least not outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime. Sure there are many assholes out there, but let's not pretend this is normal behavior for men, because it isn't.

I daresay there are a few men hereabouts who have walked on eggshells through threads like these, or simply avoided them, due to the risk of being branded a misogynist, a whiny manbaby (or some such), or having one's thoughts completely misrepresented, or just misunderstood, for the simple fact that there is so much emotion involved, and emotion is often stronger than reason.

This is a discussion board, and it's presumed that threads are initiated with the idea of the topic being discussed, which entails a variety of views being brought to the table. Naturally, we should condemn racist or misogynistic views, when that's what they are, but not all posters maligned as racists and/or misogynists deserve those labels, and not all off-the-beaten-track posts come from a dark, secret place.

I personally don't tell or ask people to smile, unless they are close friends or family; and I would never say anything to a random stranger beyond the generic hello or hi - and only as a response, when they do it first.

 

[Toni]

Guys who pass or are passed by women they would like to smile should: smile in a friendly way. That is all.

Exactly. And vica-versa and every which way.

I don't want to speak for WAB, but I suspect he would be just as pleased (if not more so) if the women he referenced simply smiled pleasantly at him, maybe included a cheerful "good morning" rather than telling him what to do or feel (however pleasantly or with good intentions they may have done it)

No, not really. Being "told" to smile was taken by me, on every occasion, as a recognition of myself as a person with the right to be happy and express joy. Hello and Good Morning are generic and we say these things to complete strangers without any real feeling: it's out of sheer habit. I can't recall a total stranger ever telling me to smile, however. These were co-workers, friends, acquaintances.

I would object to the word "told" as if it were a real demand, as it's actually not. It's a suggestion. I would also say that I do not think for a second that it's a good way to greet a complete stranger! Someone telling a random passerby to smile is a little fishy - though it hardly constitutes sexual harassment (see below before getting upset).

NOW: if any woman (or man) is being literally "told" to smile, and if such a demand is given in the tone of a threat, then yes, this would constitute harassment!

I've never heard of a man telling a woman that if she didn't smile she would be harmed, assaulted, or raped, at least not outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime. Sure there are many assholes out there, but let's not pretend this is normal behavior for men, because it isn't.

I daresay there are a few men hereabouts who have walked on eggshells through threads like these, or simply avoided them, due to the risk of being branded a misogynist, a whiny manbaby (or some such), or having one's thoughts completely misrepresented, or just misunderstood, for the simple fact that there is so much emotion involved, and emotion is often stronger than reason.

This is a discussion board, and it's presumed that threads are initiated with the idea of the topic being discussed, which entails a variety of views being brought to the table. Naturally, we should condemn racist or misogynistic views, when that's what they are, but not all posters maligned as racists and/or misogynists deserve those labels, and not all off-the-beaten-track posts come from a dark, secret place.

I personally don't tell or ask people to smile, unless they are close friends or family; and I would never say anything to a random stranger beyond the generic hello or hi - and only as a response, when they do it first.

Being told to smile is much different when it comes from someone you know and are on friendly terms with than it does from a stranger. I've been told to smile by people I know and who care about me to smile in the same way they would--or did say cheer up. When it was clearly meant as friendly encouragement and not as a demand so that I look prettier or friendlier or more accommodating for them.

And yes, I am telling you right now that declining to smile or acknowledge some random male stranger on the street who calls out to you, gestures or makes exaggerated rude kissing noises at you can indeed be followed up by something more sinister and ugly---including calling threats after you and following you. Speaking from personal experience.

Or don't believe me and watch the videos linked upthread.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

NOW: if any woman (or man) is being literally "told" to smile, and if such a demand is given in the tone of a threat, then yes, this would constitute harassment!

Agreed. But that goes for pretty much anything. It works for "hello" as well. Saying hello to somebody is usually just a polite cheerful greeting. But I can imagine scenarios where it could be said in a threatening tone. And Icould even imagine some TV mobster type guy getting offended and demanding you say hello back or he'll break your legs or something. That would be harassment. It doesn't make every "Hello" or "Smile" harassment. And that anybody would say that it does is directly on point to the OP. If "smile" counts as "relentless harassment" then we've got a problem with the claims of "constant relentless harassment of girls form a young age" talk. Stretch the category far enough and you can come up with any stat you want.

I daresay there are a few men hereabouts who have walked on eggshells through threads like these, or simply avoided them, due to the risk of being branded a misogynist, a whiny manbaby (or some such), or having one's thoughts completely misrepresented, or just misunderstood, for the simple fact that there is so much emotion involved, and emotion is often stronger than reason.

Yes, there are. But they do read, and I get private messages from them now and again. I'd wager there are many more who never register but also read.

 

[WAB]

No, not really. Being "told" to smile was taken by me, on every occasion, as a recognition of myself as a person with the right to be happy and express joy. Hello and Good Morning are generic and we say these things to complete strangers without any real feeling: it's out of sheer habit. I can't recall a total stranger ever telling me to smile, however. These were co-workers, friends, acquaintances.

I would object to the word "told" as if it were a real demand, as it's actually not. It's a suggestion. I would also say that I do not think for a second that it's a good way to greet a complete stranger! Someone telling a random passerby to smile is a little fishy - though it hardly constitutes sexual harassment (see below before getting upset).

NOW: if any woman (or man) is being literally "told" to smile, and if such a demand is given in the tone of a threat, then yes, this would constitute harassment!

I've never heard of a man telling a woman that if she didn't smile she would be harmed, assaulted, or raped, at least not outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime. Sure there are many assholes out there, but let's not pretend this is normal behavior for men, because it isn't.

I daresay there are a few men hereabouts who have walked on eggshells through threads like these, or simply avoided them, due to the risk of being branded a misogynist, a whiny manbaby (or some such), or having one's thoughts completely misrepresented, or just misunderstood, for the simple fact that there is so much emotion involved, and emotion is often stronger than reason.

This is a discussion board, and it's presumed that threads are initiated with the idea of the topic being discussed, which entails a variety of views being brought to the table. Naturally, we should condemn racist or misogynistic views, when that's what they are, but not all posters maligned as racists and/or misogynists deserve those labels, and not all off-the-beaten-track posts come from a dark, secret place.

I personally don't tell or ask people to smile, unless they are close friends or family; and I would never say anything to a random stranger beyond the generic hello or hi - and only as a response, when they do it first.

Being told to smile is much different when it comes from someone you know and are on friendly terms with than it does from a stranger. I've been told to smile by people I know and who care about me to smile in the same way they would--or did say cheer up. When it was clearly meant as friendly encouragement and not as a demand so that I look prettier or friendlier or more accommodating for them.

And yes, I am telling you right now that declining to smile or acknowledge some random male stranger on the street who calls out to you, gestures or makes exaggerated rude kissing noises at you can indeed be followed up by something more sinister and ugly---including calling threats after you and following you. Speaking from personal experience.

Or don't believe me and watch the videos linked upthread.

I believe you.

But what I am arguing is that such behavior is not normal. The far greater majority of men do not behave that way.

To clarify: I wrote:

I've never heard of a man telling a woman that if she didn't smile she would be harmed, assaulted, or raped, at least not outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime.

IOW, if some asshole is calling threats and/or following you, then they are in the commission of a crime, and they are certainly offenders, at least in my opinion. I am not aware to what extent this behavior has to go before the police can make an arrest; but if I had a say, those actions in and of themselves should be sufficient to constitute criminal behavior.

ETA: Actually, my quote above is silly, and worded wrong. If a man tells a woman she will be harmed, assaulted, or raped unless she smiles (or anything else on demand), then that man is a criminal, and has committed a crime already, regardless of what he actually does after the threat.

 

[Gun Nut]

I think Mel Gibson said it best, "You should just fucking smile and blow me".

 

[RavenSky]

Guys who pass or are passed by women they would like to smile should: smile in a friendly way. That is all.

Exactly. And vica-versa and every which way.

I don't want to speak for WAB, but I suspect he would be just as pleased (if not more so) if the women he referenced simply smiled pleasantly at him, maybe included a cheerful "good morning" rather than telling him what to do or feel (however pleasantly or with good intentions they may have done it)

No, not really. Being "told" to smile was taken by me, on every occasion, as a recognition of myself as a person with the right to be happy and express joy. Hello and Good Morning are generic and we say these things to complete strangers without any real feeling: it's out of sheer habit. I can't recall a total stranger ever telling me to smile, however. These were co-workers, friends, acquaintances.

Fair enough, especially given the bolded

I would object to the word "told" as if it were a real demand, as it's actually not. It's a suggestion. I would also say that I do not think for a second that it's a good way to greet a complete stranger! Someone telling a random passerby to smile is a little fishy - though it hardly constitutes sexual harassment (see below before getting upset).

The situations the women in this thread are talking about are random strangers demanding we smile for them.

I'm sure that many of them don't mean it in a threatening or sexually harassing way, but too many do.

NOW: if any woman (or man) is being literally "told" to smile, and if such a demand is given in the tone of a threat, then yes, this would constitute harassment!

Yes it would. However, the initial sentence is usually not uttered in a threatening tone. It is the words and/or actions following that are threatening.

And again, to be 100% clear, #NotAllMen will follow up the "smile" demand with name-calling or threatening behavior... but enough do to make the initial demand a cause of concern for women.

I've never heard of a man telling a woman that if she didn't smile she would be harmed, assaulted, or raped, at least not outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime. Sure there are many assholes out there, but let's not pretend this is normal behavior for men, because it isn't.

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean that it isn't happening. Moreover, I think you taking it too far over the top here when you say "outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime." It sounds like you are trying to create some sort of false dichotomy between "good guys" and "rapists", when the reality is that (like most everything else in human interaction) there is a continuum of behaviors.

The guys who don't ever demand (or "suggest") that women smile for them are at one end. These are the men who understand individual autonomy, and would no more demand (or "suggest") that a woman feel or appear a certain way to please them than the same man would insist that another man hop on one leg because he wants the laugh.

At the other end are those criminals you reference.

But in the giant middle there is an entire range of behaviors, a lot of which is still somewhat influenced - consciously or not - by patriarchal sexist attitudes. Telling a woman how to look or feel is one of those behaviors regardless whether it is a "well-meaning" "suggestion" or prelude to more threatening behavior.

And, as a man, do you (any of you in this thread) really want to be purposely using the same opening gambit men who ARE, in fact, harassing or assaulting women? We are telling you (as did the OP article) that too many men DO - IN FACT - follow up the supposedly innocuous demand that women smile for them with threatening words and/or actions when we ignore them.

So what are you (the non-rapey, non-misogynist, non-sexist) men getting from demanding that a woman smile for you that couldn't be better accomplished in a clearly non-harassing way?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And, as a man, do you (any of you in this thread) really want to be purposely using the same opening gambit men who ARE, in fact, harassing or assaulting women? We are telling you (as did the OP article) that too many men DO - IN FACT - follow up the supposedly innocuous demand that women smile for them with threatening words and/or actions when we ignore them.

So what are you (the non-rapey, non-misogynist, non-sexist) men getting from demanding that a woman smile for you that couldn't be better accomplished in a clearly non-harassing way?

1. Demanding that a woman smile does !=l saying "smile". No more than saying "hello" is compelling speech and a "hi" in return. You are confusing a small subset with the whole.

2. The opening of communication could be a wave, a smile, a nod, a "hello", or "smile", a "good day to you", etc, all of which have been followed by some men with threats and assault. Your logic above would stop pretty much all communication.

 

[RavenSky]

And, as a man, do you (any of you in this thread) really want to be purposely using the same opening gambit men who ARE, in fact, harassing or assaulting women? We are telling you (as did the OP article) that too many men DO - IN FACT - follow up the supposedly innocuous demand that women smile for them with threatening words and/or actions when we ignore them.

So what are you (the non-rapey, non-misogynist, non-sexist) men getting from demanding that a woman smile for you that couldn't be better accomplished in a clearly non-harassing way?

1. Demanding that a woman smile does !=l saying "smile". No more than saying "hello" is compelling speech and a "hi" in return. You are confusing a small subset with the whole.

2. The opening of communication could be a wave, a smile, a nod, a "hello", or "smile", a "good day to you", etc, all of which have been followed by some men with threats and assault. Your logic above would stop pretty much all communication.

Telling a stranger or co-worker how to behave or feel is not at all on the same level of simple greeting as a wave, your own smile, a nod, a "hello", or a "good day to you" - no matter how many times you try to minimize the behavior.

Telling a stranger or co-worker how to behave or feel is inappropriate in ALL situations, whether between a man and woman or not. Even when you truly believe that you mean it in a friendly innocuous way, it is wrong because you are sending the message that you believe you have some level of say-so over the other person.

Would you tell a male stranger or co-worker that they should cry because you think the situation calls for tears?

 

[WAB]

So what are you (the non-rapey, non-misogynist, non-sexist) men getting from demanding that a woman smile for you that couldn't be better accomplished in a clearly non-harassing way?

I have no idea, since, as I've explained, I would never demand that a woman smile for me. I would never demand anything from a woman. You're talking to a guy who's never even asked a woman out. I've never even asked for a phone number.

I've been with two women in my life, and I'm 54; and those two women had to approach me.

Don't expect me to understand, explain, or rationalize the behavior of knuckle-dragging assholes simply because they have the same genitalia as I do.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Telling a stranger or co-worker how to behave or feel is not at all on the same level of simple greeting as a wave, your own smile, a nod, a "hello", or a "good day to you" - no matter how many times you try to minimize the behavior.

Saying "smile" to somebody isn't usually a demand on their behaviour, anymore than saying Goodbye (God be with you) is a demand that they be religious. Saying "Hello" actually usually carries more of a social demand with it, as most people will say "hi" back to it.

Even when you truly believe that you mean it in a friendly innocuous way, it is wrong because you are sending the message that you believe you have some level of say-so over the other person.

Except that usually, you really aren't. That's only a small subset of people who say this, as WAB wrote and as I thought you agreed.

Would you tell a male stranger or co-worker that they should cry because you think the situation calls for tears?

No.

 

[Gun Nut]

I believe you.

But what I am arguing is that such behavior is not normal. The far greater majority of men do not behave that way.

To clarify: I wrote:

I've never heard of a man telling a woman that if she didn't smile she would be harmed, assaulted, or raped, at least not outside of cases of actual offenders before or during the commission of their crime.

IOW, if some asshole is calling threats and/or following you, then they are in the commission of a crime, and they are certainly offenders, at least in my opinion. I am not aware to what extent this behavior has to go before the police can make an arrest; but if I had a say, those actions in and of themselves should be sufficient to constitute criminal behavior.

ETA: Actually, my quote above is silly, and worded wrong. If a man tells a woman she will be harmed, assaulted, or raped unless she smiles (or anything else on demand), then that man is a criminal, and has committed a crime already, regardless of what he actually does after the threat.

Not only is verbal assault like that illegal, but (in the State of Colorado) sexual assault is one of very few crimes that can be met with deadly force. Another is kidnapping. Gotta protect the weak (women and children).

 

[RavenSky]

Saying "smile" to somebody isn't usually a demand on their behaviour,

Yes. It is.

Saying "smile" at someone is telling them to "smile". That is a demand on their behavior.

Would you tell a male stranger or co-worker that they should cry because you think the situation calls for tears?

No.

Then why would you tell someone to smile.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Then why would you tell someone to smile.

Because of what you cut out of what you quoted.