The incel issue

[rousseau]

That is a strawman. No one is arguing that. We are seeking solutions, not assigning blame. We are trying to find a way to avoid just throwing these people in the junk pile.

I have nothing against a solution, I just don't think there is one.

For the elderly there are some solutions that tackle isolation. For young people there are bars, dating sites, meetup groups, college, church etc etc. If you can't make that work I don't think there really is a tangible solution beyond accepting your situation, and making the best of it. But many of these people likely don't have the mental wherewithal to just accept it.

Bars? You realize these days the majority of people are non-drinkers?

Church? Once again, not an option for a lot of people.

Dating sites? If you've got the looks. And even then they're about extracting money, not about actually finding people. A dating site that actually works well loses it's customer base.

College is good for those at that age, useless for those who have already graduated. And at least when I was in college some fields were highly skewed.

I do agree there are things like meetup groups. I think that's probably one of the better things for them that has come along.

And you're still blaming: "don't have the mental wherewithal".

So you're suggesting that someone create a mythical, catch all solution that caters exactly to those with social problems. That'd be the internet and why there are incel groups.

Seriously, this isn't that difficult of a problem. The world offers you options to meet people. If you can't make those options work there's nothing anyone can do for you.

 

[lostone]

Some of us are wise enough to realize that we not tens and not to expect to haul in a ten. You look for someone about the same level as you are, with some similar interests and opinions, and an equal number of assets and defects, and decide, over a period of time, with some time together, if the two of you can make it work. The hardest part is and always has been finding a way to make the contacts.

The Internet has made this almost infinitely easier. Though with the downside that it's also enabling con-artists to make contact with easy marks, so a degree of caution is essential.

Nothing will work, however, unless you make an effort. And if you start that effort with a chip on your shoulder, full of resentment, you're unlikely to succeed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sure. But not if they've pre-emptively decided to despise everyone. Which is the defining feature of an incel.

The first step towards a solution is to accept that you have a problem; Incels are (by definition) those who insist that they are fine, and that their failures are therefore everyone else's fault.

The problem here is that you are mixing up the radicalized Incels with the much larger group that hasn't channeled their pain into hate.

Indeed, we live in a society that helps people - any people - find relationships. There are a metric shit-tonne of websites dedicated to this, running the entire spectrum of possible relationships that someone might want, from long term marriage and children, through to casual no-strings sex, and every shade and permutation of interaction in between.

Disagree--most of those websites are dedicated to extracting money from users by dangling the hope of a relationship but rarely delivering.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You realize these days the majority of people are non-drinkers?

You're an American, aren't you?

I have my doubts that the majority of Americans these days are non-drinkers, though I am prepared to take your word for it. But I can assure you that your claim is wildly incorrect with regards to the rest of the OECD nations, or the rest of the world for that matter.

I'm not finding the chart I saw before that showed how lopsided the distribution is.

I do find that 1/3 didn't drink at all last year and nearly half had less than three drinks/week (and from the chart I'm not finding, most of those were way less. People like my wife who will sometimes have a drink on a transpacific flight--but almost never otherwise.)

 

[bilby]

nearly half had less than three drinks/week

That's a self-refutation then. Your claim:

these days the majority of people are non-drinkers

Is clearly incompatible with just over half (ie "the majority") of those polled having more than three drinks/week, which is an unavoidable consequence of nearly (ie "less than") half of people having less than that threshold.

And is even less compatible with a threshold of zero drinks/week, which is what most normal people would expect the epithet "non-drinkers" to imply.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

nearly half had less than three drinks/week

That's a self-refutation then. Your claim:

these days the majority of people are non-drinkers

Is clearly incompatible with just over half (ie "the majority") of those polled having more than three drinks/week, which is an unavoidable consequence of nearly (ie "less than") half of people having less than that threshold.

And is even less compatible with a threshold of zero drinks/week, which is what most normal people would expect the epithet "non-drinkers" to imply.

No, the <3/wk is in addition to the 1/3 that don't drink at all. In other words, only 20% of the population reaches the 3/wk level.

 

[bilby]

nearly half had less than three drinks/week

That's a self-refutation then. Your claim:

these days the majority of people are non-drinkers

Is clearly incompatible with just over half (ie "the majority") of those polled having more than three drinks/week, which is an unavoidable consequence of nearly (ie "less than") half of people having less than that threshold.

And is even less compatible with a threshold of zero drinks/week, which is what most normal people would expect the epithet "non-drinkers" to imply.

No, the <3/wk is in addition to the 1/3 that don't drink at all. In other words, only 20% of the population reaches the 3/wk level.

Someone who drinks isn't a non-drinker.

If only 1/3 of people don't drink at all, then 2/3 are drinkers, and the claim "the majority of people are non-drinkers" is demonstrably false.

Co-opting those who are, undeniably, drinkers, (if only occasionally), and pasting them into your "non-drinkers" category, to provide the illusion of a majority, is a trick that's beloved of political lobbyists, but should be beneath those of us with pretensions to moral adequacy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

nearly half had less than three drinks/week

That's a self-refutation then. Your claim:

these days the majority of people are non-drinkers

Is clearly incompatible with just over half (ie "the majority") of those polled having more than three drinks/week, which is an unavoidable consequence of nearly (ie "less than") half of people having less than that threshold.

And is even less compatible with a threshold of zero drinks/week, which is what most normal people would expect the epithet "non-drinkers" to imply.

No, the <3/wk is in addition to the 1/3 that don't drink at all. In other words, only 20% of the population reaches the 3/wk level.

Someone who drinks isn't a non-drinker.

If only 1/3 of people don't drink at all, then 2/3 are drinkers, and the claim "the majority of people are non-drinkers" is demonstrably false.

Co-opting those who are, undeniably, drinkers, (if only occasionally), and pasting them into your "non-drinkers" category, to provide the illusion of a majority, is a trick that's beloved of political lobbyists, but should be beneath those of us with pretensions to moral adequacy.

The people who rarely drink are not going to be using bars as a place to meet romantic partners.

 

[bilby]

The people who rarely drink are not going to be using bars as a place to meet romantic partners.

That flies in the face of my experience.

The people who rarely drink are mostly those who have already got romantic partners.

These are not independent variables, not by a long chalk.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My experience is that the people who rarely drink and are single are rare. I was one of them, so bars didn't work very well.

 

[BH]

Hmmmm. I'm almost fifty and have never been married. I dated a few women over the years but it never went anywhere.

Im happy as I am and learned long ago to not let what other people think of me rule over me. We all have to live in our own skin and find a way to survive as best we can. Sometimes I play the "what could have been" ideas out in my mind but I remember if something was meant to be it would have happened. In real life I think I have a good reputation character wise but am rather eccentric, not in an antisocial way but just different. One thing I have been told is that I am probably autistic. Never been tested for it clinically but a brother in law who was a teacher and a cousin with all but dissertation for a PHD in psychology was talking about me with my sister and parents years ago. The two said I showed symptoms of it, especially when younger. It was always hard to understand social clues, made weird noises as a kid when excited. There probably is some truth to what they say. But one thing they granted me is that I am actually highly intelligent and willing to learn forcing myself to find a way to live and succeed in life despite autism if I do indeed have it. Not to be ugly but my sister and brother and law never had to loan me money in a bind, but I helped them out a few times so I must not have done too bad.

 

[lostone]

Hmmmm. I'm almost fifty and have never been married. I dated a few women over the years but it never went anywhere.

Im happy as I am and learned long ago to not let what other people think of me rule over me. We all have to live in our own skin and find a way to survive as best we can. Sometimes I play the "what could have been" ideas out in my mind but I remember if something was meant to be it would have happened. In real life I think I have a good reputation character wise but am rather eccentric, not in an antisocial way but just different. One thing I have been told is that I am probably autistic. Never been tested for it clinically but a brother in law who was a teacher and a cousin with all but dissertation for a PHD in psychology was talking about me with my sister and parents years ago. The two said I showed symptoms of it, especially when younger. It was always hard to understand social clues, made weird noises as a kid when excited. There probably is some truth to what they say. But one thing they granted me is that I am actually highly intelligent and willing to learn forcing myself to find a way to live and succeed in life despite autism if I do indeed have it. Not to be ugly but my sister and brother and law never had to loan me money in a bind, but I helped them out a few times so I must not have done too bad.

Then By your own admission you're not an incel. Maybe a little bit asexual, but not an incel.

 

[steve_bank]

The incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, a portmanteau of "involuntary celibate") subculture is an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.

From reporting over the last several years young people are losing the ability to socialize face to face. Kids no longer grow up with the face to face peer kid time my generation did.

Add to that growing mental health issues from kids to 30 somethings. Alienation. No social peers for support and community. Hyper sexuality culture fostered by advertising, TV, and movies. Impossible standards of beauty and attractiveness.

I don't think beoming unpleasant has much to with it.

 

[BH]

These incels or whatever need to be careful with what they desire. I have a friend that was married to a woman with a porn star looks and he got laid off from his job. He got hired for a new job that paid very well but only half what he made before. The day after he told her what he was making she filed for divorce. I'm not saying this to knock women. I've heard stories of men leaving their wives after mastectomies, ect. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.

 

[lostone]

Women are not saints. Nor are men. You're absolutely right. Be careful what you wish for - you might get it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

These incels or whatever need to be careful with what they desire. I have a friend that was married to a woman with a porn star looks and he got laid off from his job. He got hired for a new job that paid very well but only half what he made before. The day after he told her what he was making she filed for divorce. I'm not saying this to knock women. I've heard stories of men leaving their wives after mastectomies, ect. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.

I doubt this has anything to do with incel, but simply not recognizing that she was after money, not him.

Be very wary of marrying above your level as they're likely after something other than love.

 

[BH]

exactly

 

[Elixir]

Be very wary of marrying above your level

Hm. I won’t even start on what’s all wrong with that.
But I’d advise anyone to be far more wary of being assigned to a “level”.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Be very wary of marrying above your level

Hm. I won’t even start on what’s all wrong with that.
But I’d advise anyone to be far more wary of being assigned to a “level”.

In this case--she was considerably more attractive than he was.

 

[Bronzeage]

These incels or whatever need to be careful with what they desire. I have a friend that was married to a woman with a porn star looks and he got laid off from his job. He got hired for a new job that paid very well but only half what he made before. The day after he told her what he was making she filed for divorce. I'm not saying this to knock women. I've heard stories of men leaving their wives after mastectomies, ect. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.

As the great philosopher Mendacious said, Whenever you see a beautiful woman, just remember, somewhere there is a man who is sick of her shit.