Rape culture: British Style

[The Paul]

If there aren't any girls getting drunk enough to make easy victims then the rapists will just drug relatively sober girls.

What makes you think all rapists are the same? Do you think all murderers are the same? Some people kill as a 'crime of passion'. Some people are serial killers. A serial killer will find another victim. A crime of passion killer won't.

Well, I guess if a person has the basic underlying defects that make them willing to rape someone but they only ever have the desire to have sex once or twice in their life then thwarting the crime of passion might stop the crime altogether, sure.

 

[Underseer]

[...]

Each of the signs are a warning. They do not blame the victim. They both suggest behaviours that may reduce your victimhood potential (be aware, or don't get drunk). Whether you think these suggestions demand too much of potential victims is a different debate. But they do not blame the victim.

[...]

Then why does every defense lawyer in a rape case use these exact same arguments to produce a "she asked for it" defense for their clients?

They use the "she asked for it" defense because people genuinely believe that women who dress in certain ways or behave in certain ways deserve to be raped, and they think these things using the exact same arguments you are defending.

 

[Metaphor]

What makes you think all rapists are the same? Do you think all murderers are the same? Some people kill as a 'crime of passion'. Some people are serial killers. A serial killer will find another victim. A crime of passion killer won't.

Well, I guess if a person has the basic underlying defects that make them willing to rape someone but they only ever have the desire to have sex once or twice in their life then thwarting the crime of passion might stop the crime altogether, sure.

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

Please amend your argument, because sanctioning the belief that rape had anything to do with sex means you are misinformed and supporting a rape myth. It's also a sign of a rape culture to believe that. And probably anyone who would believe that is likely to be a rapist.

 

[Metaphor]

[...]

Each of the signs are a warning. They do not blame the victim. They both suggest behaviours that may reduce your victimhood potential (be aware, or don't get drunk). Whether you think these suggestions demand too much of potential victims is a different debate. But they do not blame the victim.

[...]

Then why does every defense lawyer in a rape case use these exact same arguments to produce a "she asked for it" defense for their clients?

They use the "she asked for it" defense because people genuinely believe that women who dress in certain ways or behave in certain ways deserve to be raped, and they think these things using the exact same arguments you are defending.

I imagine the defense is not a she asked to be raped defense, but a she's a slut and actually consented defence.

When you say I'm defending arguments, what arguments specifically do you think I'm defending?

Is the logical and consistent use of language indefensible?

 

[ksen]

I imagine the defense is not a she asked to be raped defense, but a she's a slut and actually consented defence.

Slut shaming, of course, is not indicative of rape culture at all.

 

[Metaphor]

If only it made women safer. It doesn't, really.

If telling girls all of those things worked, virtually no one would be raped at or after a party.

Telling girls these things does help them be informed about what actions *might* help them be safer. But it also puts them on the hook for their own safety--if they get raped, they must have done something wrong.

No, it does not put them on the hook for it. The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea to try and avoid rape.

 

[Metaphor]

I imagine the defense is not a she asked to be raped defense, but a she's a slut and actually consented defence.

Slut shaming, of course, is not indicative of rape culture at all.

I'm not claiming that slut shaming is or is not a part of rape culture (mostly because I still have no idea what a rape culture is supposed to be). I'm claiming that legal defenses of rape probably try to convince the jury there was no rape, because there was consent. I very much doubt a jury has ever been asked by defense counsel to forget about consent because it's obvious there wasn't any, but to instead consider if the victim deserved to be raped.

 

[ksen]

The fact that slut shaming is seen as effective with jurors by defense counselors kind of proves that rape apologia, I.e. rape culture, is alive and well.

 

[Sabine Grant]

The fact that slut shaming is seen as effective with jurors by defense counselors kind of proves that rape apologia, I.e. rape culture, is alive and well.

The "slut shaming " process also involves the notion of placing the responsibility on the victim for the act committed against her. Inducing the reasoning that she is to be partially blamed, resulting in the defense successfully convincing Jurors that she is not a "real victim".That does not mean the Jury will render a non guilty verdict. What it does mean though is that the victim is subjected to a process which can only cause intense psychological damages to aggravate the initial damages resulting from the trauma of the rape alone.

Among the folks members of the recovery/support groups I mediated, several whose cases went to trial and resulted in a guilty verdict were psychologically wounded by such process as described above.

Imo the point of contention regarding the poster pictured in the OP is that it places the responsibility on potential victims rather than focusing on placing the entire and 100% responsibility on potential perpetrators. We do live in a culture where women are designated as the party expected to do or not do to avoid being raped. The focus needs to shift indeed on "do not be that guy".

IMO, the way one perceives the message from that poster will vary depending on whether the viewer has been a rape victim related to intoxication. Because I completed all the recovery steps and was able to overcome any sense of " if I had not....it would not have happened", I can view it without feeling that the responsibility is placed on me. However, a non recovered rape victim will view the message as making her partially responsible for what happened to her via "if I had not....it would not have happened to me". Part of the recovery steps whether they be taken via mediated/facilitated support groups or professional counseling is to insure that victims shed themselves off any sense of guilt, shame and self blaming. The goal being to first and foremost validate them as INNOCENT victims so we can then help them transition into the final step (via all the recovery process) of being a SURVIVOR. Such transitioning process will be compromised when the wrong language is used , any time such language evokes a partial responsibility on the part of the victim.

 

[The Paul]

Well, I guess if a person has the basic underlying defects that make them willing to rape someone but they only ever have the desire to have sex once or twice in their life then thwarting the crime of passion might stop the crime altogether, sure.

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

Please amend your argument, because sanctioning the belief that rape had anything to do with sex means you are misinformed and supporting a rape myth. It's also a sign of a rape culture to believe that. And probably anyone who would believe that is likely to be a rapist.

I really thought I was going to have to work harder than that.

 

[Togo]

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

Please amend your argument, because sanctioning the belief that rape had anything to do with sex means you are misinformed and supporting a rape myth. It's also a sign of a rape culture to believe that. And probably anyone who would believe that is likely to be a rapist.

I really thought I was going to have to work harder than that.

Nah, they pretty much just pop out at you.

 

[prideandfall]

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

if he isn't, i am - what you were told is wrong. rape is about sex, and anyone who says differently is for some reason desperately trying to rationalize away the fact that as animals, human males have in them the capacity and the impulse to fuck anything whether that thing likes it or not, and some males lack the social conditioning that is required to negate that impulse.
the whole 'rape isn't about sex' bullshit has always struck me as certain people trying to convince themselves that the impulse doesn't exist in the first place, for reasons i've always just attributed to trying to make themselves feel better about the human condition, because they can't emotionally deal with the fact that many times, it's rather ugly.

 

[Toni]

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

if he isn't, i am - what you were told is wrong. rape is about sex, and anyone who says differently is for some reason desperately trying to rationalize away the fact that as animals, human males have in them the capacity and the impulse to fuck anything whether that thing likes it or not, and some males lack the social conditioning that is required to negate that impulse.
the whole 'rape isn't about sex' bullshit has always struck me as certain people trying to convince themselves that the impulse doesn't exist in the first place, for reasons i've always just attributed to trying to make themselves feel better about the human condition, because they can't emotionally deal with the fact that many times, it's rather ugly.

Thanks. That totally explains the rapist who breaks into a house and rapes the 80 year old man and wife.

I never really understood that before.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am trying to understand why asking potential victims to do something to reduce their victimhood potential in non-rape contexts is never blaming the victim (lock your doors at night, be alert for pickpockets, always have a hand on your handbag), but asking any potential victim to do something to reduce their victimhood potential in a rape context is always blaming the victim.

There appears to be a total disconnect that no-one has ever explained to me.

Simple: The feminist notion that everything's the man's fault.

- - - Updated - - -

[...]

Each of the signs are a warning. They do not blame the victim. They both suggest behaviours that may reduce your victimhood potential (be aware, or don't get drunk). Whether you think these suggestions demand too much of potential victims is a different debate. But they do not blame the victim.

[...]

Then why does every defense lawyer in a rape case use these exact same arguments to produce a "she asked for it" defense for their clients?

They use the "she asked for it" defense because people genuinely believe that women who dress in certain ways or behave in certain ways deserve to be raped, and they think these things using the exact same arguments you are defending.

Huh? Haven't she-asked-for-it defenses long since banned?

(Distinct from she-said-yes defenses.)

 

[Bronzeage]

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

if he isn't, i am - what you were told is wrong. rape is about sex, and anyone who says differently is for some reason desperately trying to rationalize away the fact that as animals, human males have in them the capacity and the impulse to fuck anything whether that thing likes it or not, and some males lack the social conditioning that is required to negate that impulse.
the whole 'rape isn't about sex' bullshit has always struck me as certain people trying to convince themselves that the impulse doesn't exist in the first place, for reasons i've always just attributed to trying to make themselves feel better about the human condition, because they can't emotionally deal with the fact that many times, it's rather ugly.

If this is your position, you may also have trouble distinguishing between standing in damp socks and standing in the deep end of the pool.

Some rape is not about sex, in the way most of us understand and enjoy sex. Some rape is about sex. The definition of rape is very wide and conversations such as this make it wider. This may be the real objection posed by those who believe "human males have in them the capacity and the impulse to fuck anything whether that thing likes it or not."

If there truly were such an impulse, no social conditioning could restrain it. This discussion is not about irresistible overwhelming impulses to insure one's genetic code is transmitted to a new generation. It is more about social conditioning, specifically the social conditioning which leads some men to believe they are entitled to sex with any woman whose resistance is impaired.

The man who takes advantage of impaired resistance doesn't see himself as a rapist. After all, she never said "No," or at least not enough times. Her problem is "morning regret," or, "changed her mind."
This man does not have the social conditioning to understand that having sex with a woman who is unable to resist and will regret having sex with him is rape and he is a rapist. It's an ugly fact, but that's the truth.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If there truly were such an impulse, no social conditioning could restrain it.

This depends highly on your definition of "impulse". People can starve themselves to death if they choose to, and the impulse to eat is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, impulses that we have.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I am a feminist
I don't thing everything is the man's fault
But I do think that what is the man's fault is the man'ss fault and I will say so.

A solution to this whole thing is to post two posters together, the one in the op and one from the "Don't be that guy" campaign.

Simple.

Yet still the argument continues which leads me to ask both sides, why?

 

[Bronzeage]

If there truly were such an impulse, no social conditioning could restrain it.

This depends highly on your definition of "impulse". People can starve themselves to death if they choose to, and the impulse to eat is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, impulses that we have.

Let's put it on a level of reflex, something like the reflex which forces us to inhale, even though we're underwater and will drown.

 

[Metaphor]

How curious. Are you saying rape is about sex? Because I've been told it is not about sex, but power. It's got nothing to do with sex.

Please amend your argument, because sanctioning the belief that rape had anything to do with sex means you are misinformed and supporting a rape myth. It's also a sign of a rape culture to believe that. And probably anyone who would believe that is likely to be a rapist.

I really thought I was going to have to work harder than that.

You should.

 

[prideandfall]

If this is your position, you may also have trouble distinguishing between standing in damp socks and standing in the deep end of the pool.

why on earth would you say that, considering that it is your position (and not mine) that states any time your feet are wet, it's because you're standing in water?

Some rape is not about sex, in the way most of us understand and enjoy sex.

true, but that doesn't mean it isn't about sex in a way most of you don't understand or enjoy.
that doesn't make it not about sex.

i'm not saying that in many/most cases rape isn't also about power, or control, or whatever else - but power and control can also come from violence, and nobody says that when a man beats his wife "oh that had nothing to do with violence or hurting them, it was all about power," because that's self-evidently absurd.

If there truly were such an impulse, no social conditioning could restrain it.

patently and observably false.
as animals, we have myriad impulses to do things which we have selectively conditioned out of our behavioral responses, to the point where in many cases we will bypass instinct entirely and literally kill ourselves rather than violate that conditioning.

This discussion is not about irresistible overwhelming impulses to insure one's genetic code is transmitted to a new generation.

i don't believe anyone ever said it was.

It is more about social conditioning, specifically the social conditioning which leads some men to believe they are entitled to sex with any woman whose resistance is impaired.

i completely disagree with the entirety of your premise here - keeping in mind that we're all just animals, like any other animal, biologically speaking there is no 'entitlement' to sex anymore then there is an 'entitlement' to not-sex, everything comes down to brute force and then gets mitigated by social custom (ie: mating rituals) from there.
biologically speaking, the impetus to have sex doesn't give a shit about consent, any more than the impetus to eat food gives a shit about whether or not the bread belongs to you or if you've paid for it.
we socially condition our species to resist the biological impetus to act on those impulses regardless of the consequence, so i think that what you consider a socially conditioned sense of entitlement to sex i consider a lack of social conditioning to resist to impulse for sex regardless of consent.

The man who takes advantage of impaired resistance doesn't see himself as a rapist. After all, she never said "No," or at least not enough times. Her problem is "morning regret," or, "changed her mind."

there's also a pretty big question of what exactly constitutes 'takes advantage of', because while a sober man assaulting a drunk woman is clearly sexual assault, i question whether a man too drunk to legally give consent having sex with a woman too drunk to legally give consent is in fact a rapist, or at least is a rapist any more than the woman is also a rapist.

This man does not have the social conditioning to understand that having sex with a woman who is unable to resist and will regret having sex with him is rape and he is a rapist. It's an ugly fact, but that's the truth.

i don't disagree with this statement, though i'd bet that it's for different reasons than you.