Why it's ok to be a rambling fool.

RamblingFool said:

Angry Floof said:

RamblingFool said:

Because that is exactly what we all think of each other when the other is on the other side.
Republicans are rambling fools. Democrats too. Americans in general if we disagree with their points of view.
Civil discourse has died. Maybe this place will be the exception, it would be grand if that turns out to be true.

I just responded to someone who posted the acronym TDS to explain away any criticism of Trump. THAT is so lame, it is laughable.
Meanwhile Joe sniffs hair, poops his pants, and falls asleep
It's like NO ONE wants to actually talk about policy, direction of the country, the future for our children, or discuss a topic with a level head and some researched material

It's all repeating whatever nonsense is spouted off on FOX or CNN.

So, I appreciate rambling fools, as you can all see, I started this thread rambling. But don't be a babbling fool. There IS a difference.

Thanks.

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Gee, I wonder what side of humanity this one is on.

"bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" is the mantra of people who don't actually know what's going on and have no principles or conscience to help them tell the difference, so this is what they say to try to appear to be reasonable and above it all. You're not fooling anybody.

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Well, let's tactic your rebuttal. Disrespectful, petulant and childish come to mind. Not very original either.
However, I clearly did NOT say "bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" as I DID say............

RamblingFool said:

ONE SIDE is MORE extreme, the MAGA side. SO yes, one side is worse, but does that give our side an excuse to be uncivil to them?

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RamblingFool said:

Of course they are and we have to keep pointing that out. However, focusing on Trump's tan, or his weight, or how often he stumbles or walks awkwardly, or mocking him for riding around in a golf cart, is as immature as they saying Biden sniffs hair and poops his pants. That was the POINT of my OP. We can certainly challenge THEM on their world view and support of Trump, but it's the kindergarten grade insults and put downs that make us look just like them. Think about it.

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However, your childish rebuttal spoke volumes about the maturity level we find on debate forums nowadays, and only enhanced my theme about our inability to have civil conversations with each other. YOU must be so proud!

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Again, your non-opinion of "both sides" is based in nothing and is and has always been the lame attempt of people who don't actually know what's going on and don't have any principles or morals to guide them.

I mean, you're always welcome to present us with something other than "I knew it!!!! Teh leftits are mean to honest both sidesers like me! therefore, authoritarianism must be correct!"

This is nothing new. It's "both sides" and then tantrums and accusations when the vapid, useless nature of "both sides" is called out.

RamblingFool said:

Angry Floof said:

RamblingFool said:

Because that is exactly what we all think of each other when the other is on the other side.
Republicans are rambling fools. Democrats too. Americans in general if we disagree with their points of view.
Civil discourse has died. Maybe this place will be the exception, it would be grand if that turns out to be true.

I just responded to someone who posted the acronym TDS to explain away any criticism of Trump. THAT is so lame, it is laughable.
Meanwhile Joe sniffs hair, poops his pants, and falls asleep
It's like NO ONE wants to actually talk about policy, direction of the country, the future for our children, or discuss a topic with a level head and some researched material

It's all repeating whatever nonsense is spouted off on FOX or CNN.

So, I appreciate rambling fools, as you can all see, I started this thread rambling. But don't be a babbling fool. There IS a difference.

Thanks.

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Gee, I wonder what side of humanity this one is on.

"bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" is the mantra of people who don't actually know what's going on and have no principles or conscience to help them tell the difference, so this is what they say to try to appear to be reasonable and above it all. You're not fooling anybody.

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Well, let's tactic your rebuttal. Disrespectful, petulant and childish come to mind. Not very original either.
However, I clearly did NOT say "bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" as I DID say............

RamblingFool said:

ONE SIDE is MORE extreme, the MAGA side. SO yes, one side is worse, but does that give our side an excuse to be uncivil to them?

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RamblingFool said:

Of course they are and we have to keep pointing that out. However, focusing on Trump's tan, or his weight, or how often he stumbles or walks awkwardly, or mocking him for riding around in a golf cart, is as immature as they saying Biden sniffs hair and poops his pants. That was the POINT of my OP. We can certainly challenge THEM on their world view and support of Trump, but it's the kindergarten grade insults and put downs that make us look just like them. Think about it.

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However, your childish rebuttal spoke volumes about the maturity level we find on debate forums nowadays, and only enhanced my theme about our inability to have civil conversations with each other. YOU must be so proud!

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In a way, it’s kind of like trying to have civil conversations with religious fundamentalists. One gets to the point where ridicule is all that’s left and arguably more effective.

If one wishes to be a fool, likes being a fool, and really harms no one else, then rambling or not, it is oj, IMHO. Otherwise it is not ok.

I'm very civil to people if I think they're dealing straight with me. I find it harder to go through the charade of polite speech if I feel like they're putting up a front or not planning to read my response at all.

RamblingFool said:

GenesisNemesis said:

Yeah but also, the uncivility problem is not a both sides issue.

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IT IS on both sides. We call THEM Nazis and Fascists. They call us Socialists, commies, woke, anti-American. ONE SIDE is MORE extreme, the MAGA side. SO yes, one side is worse, but does that give our side an excuse to be uncivil to them?

ideologyhunter said:

Uncivil, hell. They're trying to upend our system of voters, elections, peaceful transfer of power, majority rule.

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Of course they are and we have to keep pointing that out. However, focusing on Trump's tan, or his weight, or how often he stumbles or walks awkwardly, or mocking him for riding around in a golf cart, is as immature as they saying Biden sniffs hair and poops his pants. That was the POINT of my OP. We can certainly challenge THEM on their world view and support of Trump, but it's the kindergarten grade insults and put downs that make us look just like them. Think about it.

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The difference is that currently the Republican Party and their supporters are fascists, a word with a clearly defined meaning. The terms such as socialists, commie, woke, and so on, have clear meaning to those who understand them, but are simply used as epithets by Republicans without understanding the meanings of the words as they don't care.
You label yourself liberal, but that is not same as leftist. Also, the Democratic Party is not leftist, it is mainly a centre-right party with a minority of members more to the left.

As regards mocking Trump for minor things may be slightly immature, however there is also a lot of major things that he can be criticized for such as being an insurrectionist, his document stealing (which others have been imprisoned for mishandling just one document), his lies and frauds, anti-democratic actions and speeches, and so on.

Spacetime Inhabitant said:

As regards mocking Trump for minor things may be slightly immature, however there is also a lot of major things that he can be criticized for

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THEN let's focus on those issues. They are serious enough and Trump is indeed a threat to democracy and the rule of law. However, this being the internet, people resort to the lowest common denominator when attacking an opponent. I could say, that kind of behavior is very.................. Trumpish.

A bully like Trump, who loves to pick on others, and takes a childish delight in belittling others with nicknames straight from the sandbox, deserves to paid in the same coin. I say, let Jimmy Kimmel make up another 100 names for Trump. The first 100 aren't enough. When Trump shows zero respect for anyone who disagrees with him, he has no call to be shown respect by me.

I think that Trump is seriously mentally ill, a malignant narcissist, a sociopath and in the early stages of dementia, so part of me wants to bash him for all the things that has done and wants to do to our country and the world, while the more compassionate side of me feels a bit bad that we don't have a way to treat his illnesses, while declaring him unfit for political office. I feel the same way about people like Elon Musk.. As far as the tRump supporters go, most of the ones I know personally are fairly decent people who have been caught up in an evil cult. They don't realize how dangerous the cult is and it's very hard to help someone leave a cult. They are victims of propaganda. Think of how hard it is to persuade a fundamentalist Christian that their beliefs are simply mythology and potentially dangerous. I've been bullied by a few when I was still working as a QA nurse. I had one last year tell me I was going to hell and she would pray for me. I told her how I felt about her beliefs but now we get along fine.

Despite Trump's mental illnesses, I don't see anything wrong with attacking him for his polices and harmful actions. We put people in prisons for far less harmful things. He tells outrageous lies about the other side, none of which are true. I'm not even sure he knows he is lying, as he's that mentally ill.

I think we need drastic prison reform, but that doesn't seem to be on the minds of politicians these days, so there are lots of imperfect things about humans and there are many dangerous things about Trump, regardless if he can help it or not. In fact, humans are the most dangerous species on the planet. We do harm even when that's not our intention. But, I digress.

RamblingFool said:

bilby said:

RamblingFool said:

Why not just follow Clinton's example and call them ALL deplorables.

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Clinton explicitly didn't do that. She referred to a "basket of deplorables", with whom she was contrasting the rest of the Republicans - the ones who were calmly ignoring the detrimental effect of those deplorables on their once respectable party.

You appear to have fallen victim to the very disease you are warning about. Physician, heal thyself!

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Hillary Clinton said half of Donald Trump’s supporters belong in a “basket of deplorables”
That is millions of Americans. Millions. Wrap your head around that.

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Half is not all. Millions is not all.

If you wish to complain about other people exaggerating, or using hyperbole, then it is important not to include exaggerations or hyperbole in your complaint, lest you be ignored or derided as a hypocrite.

The idea that there are not millions of Americans who are deplorable is absurd on its face; Of course there are. Donsld Trump got over 74 million votes in 2020; That's after people had had the chance to see just how bad he was as president, and to note that your formerly respected nation had been made ridiculous.

If you don't agree that that's deplorable, you don't know the meaning of the word. Millions of Americans - tens of millions - are, observably and undeniably, deplorable.

And yet, Clinton very generously only accused half of Trump's supporters of that. Despite your false statement that she "call[ed] them ALL deplorables".

If you are aghast at the disrespect shown to those tens of millions (note: out of hundreds of millions), then you haven't been paying attention. If people want not to be disrespected, their first resort should be to act respectably, not to behave deplorably and then stupidly demand respect like children and mobsters do.

RamblingFool said:

Spacetime Inhabitant said:

As regards mocking Trump for minor things may be slightly immature, however there is also a lot of major things that he can be criticized for

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THEN let's focus on those issues. They are serious enough and Trump is indeed a threat to democracy and the rule of law. However, this being the internet, people resort to the lowest common denominator when attacking an opponent. I could say, that kind of behavior is very.................. Trumpish.

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This isn't "the internet"; This is IIDB.

That you don't comprehend that there's a difference, suggests that you haven't been here long enough to earn the respect necessary to make with impunity the kind of accusations against other members that you have made in this thread.

This is a village. We don't all agree with (or even like) each other; But we don't take kindly to some stranger strolling in and telling us all how wrong we are about everything, before he has even had time to get to know thing one about us, or our community.

Newbies are welcome, but not if they just want to drag the place into the cesspool that is the general Internet at large.

I don't understand my mother who is a Trump supporter and rabidly so. She is rather educated and worked in a hospital lab for twenty years. My sister is the same way, though listening to Trump and the ant-ivaxers and anti-maskers cost her husband his life. He had a masters and sister is well educated with a four year degree teaching school. It's sad they made dumb choices and he ended up dead. He was a good man just wouldn't trust anything anyone "left" said because they disagreed with his moral stances on things like abortion. If you believe abortion should be legal then everything else you say including water is wet is suspect. To me this crap with Trump is personal. Listening to him got people killed or he allowed people to speak about things they had no business talking about that got people killed like masks do no good. And the fact he tried to be Napoleon light on January 6th and got people hurt or killed for no reason makes me vomit.

bilby said:

RamblingFool said:

bilby said:

RamblingFool said:

Why not just follow Clinton's example and call them ALL deplorables.

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Clinton explicitly didn't do that. She referred to a "basket of deplorables", with whom she was contrasting the rest of the Republicans - the ones who were calmly ignoring the detrimental effect of those deplorables on their once respectable party.

You appear to have fallen victim to the very disease you are warning about. Physician, heal thyself!

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Hillary Clinton said half of Donald Trump’s supporters belong in a “basket of deplorables”
That is millions of Americans. Millions. Wrap your head around that.

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Half is not all. Millions is not all.

If you wish to complain about other people exaggerating, or using hyperbole, then it is important not to include exaggerations or hyperbole in your complaint, lest you be ignored or derided as a hypocrite.

The idea that there are not millions of Americans who are deplorable is absurd on its face; Of course there are. Donsld Trump got over 74 million votes in 2020; That's after people had had the chance to see just how bad he was as president, and to note that your formerly respected nation had been made ridiculous.

If you don't agree that that's deplorable, you don't know the meaning of the word. Millions of Americans - tens of millions - are, observably and undeniably, deplorable.

And yet, Clinton very generously only accused half of Trump's supporters of that. Despite your false statement that she "call[ed] them ALL deplorables".

If you are aghast at the disrespect shown to those tens of millions (note: out of hundreds of millions), then you haven't been paying attention. If people want not to be disrespected, their first resort should be to act respectably, not to behave deplorably and then stupidly demand respect like children and mobsters do.

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You just called 74 million Americans deplorable. Seems my plea for open-minded and civil discussions are misdirected here. I guess I need to find a forum where people actually TALK to each other.

RamblingFool said:

You just called 74 million Americans deplorable. Seems my plea for open-minded and civil discussions are misdirected here. I guess I need to find a forum where people actually TALK to each other.

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I don’t notice that he failed to TALK to you, he just failed to AGREE with you. Do you equate talking to you, to agreeing with you?

RamblingFool said:

You just called 74 million Americans deplorable.

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My word, Holmes! How do you do it??

It would be astonishing to me if the actual figure were so low.

What is missing from your pearl-clutching response to my apparent rudeness in calling out deplorable people for being deplorable, is any evidence whatsoever that I am mistaken in doing so.

Civility is wasted on the uncivil, and a demand for civility, in the face of deplorable behaviour, is the hallmark of the authoritarian coward.

If you want to actually TALK, you're in the right place. If you want to impose your own set of rules for polite discourse onto other members, not so much.

We already have such rules; You agreed to them when you joined.

BH said:

I don't understand my mother who is a Trump supporter and rabidly so. She is rather educated and worked in a hospital lab for twenty years. My sister is the same way, though listening to Trump and the ant-ivaxers and anti-maskers cost her husband his life. He had a masters and sister is well educated with a four year degree teaching school. It's sad they made dumb choices and he ended up dead. He was a good man just wouldn't trust anything anyone "left" said because they disagreed with his moral stances on things like abortion. If you believe abortion should be legal then everything else you say including water is wet is suspect. To me this crap with Trump is personal. Listening to him got people killed or he allowed people to speak about things they had no business talking about that got people killed like masks do no good. And the fact he tried to be Napoleon light on January 6th and got people hurt or killed for no reason makes me vomit.

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I feel for you. I have a friend, although we rarely keep in touch any longer, who was an RN, who I worked with briefly before I retired. She was a very good person, as far as being compassionate and giving good care to her patients. She was about to be married to a man she has met online. They were both in their early 70s and they were both Trump supporters. They refused the vaccines, didn't wear masks and were out and about during the height of the pandemic. Sadly, he died from COVID and she was hospitalized for a few weeks with COVID. Now she spends most of her time at home, can no longer drive, probably has some symptoms of long COVID. I have no idea if she still supports Trump, but she voted for him twice and proudly had a Trump sign in her yard. Like you, I know people who were sucked into the Trump cult, and made choices due to him, despite being otherwise smart, kind, caring people.

My neighbor across the street is another example, although now he's a double hater, but I doubt he will support Harris. He has done so many things for other neighbors, including fixing my husband's riding lawn mower, cutting the grass of a former neighbor, and rescuing us once when our car had a problem downtown and we need help getting home. I spoke to a Democrat earlier today who thinks Trump is a huge threat, but she agrees with me that there is no reason to be nasty like Trump or to hate Trump supporters as they are victims of a cult. It's hard to reason with these people, but I don't blame them. I blame Trump.

Trump's appeal reminds me a bit of the Billy Graham crusades I was forced to attend as a child. Graham knew exactly how to manipulate people, by lowering the lights, having the choir sing softly and promising them eternal life. Of course, as a young adult, I realized it was all bullshit and a cult, but at least my late mother despised Trump, unlike her evangelical friends and was horrified that he became president. She was one of the small percentage of evangelicals who were enlightened enough to see that Trump was a danger to the country.

Living outside of New York City might have helped as we knew Trump was an unqualified grifter long before he ran for president. She and I never discussed abortion so I assume she felt it wasn't any of her business what other women did when it came to their bodies. But, regardless, she never based her vote on one issue, like a lot of Republicans do. I always found it ironic that allowing most anyone to own dangerous weapons, but outlawing abortion went hand in hand to so many of them.

RamblingFool said:

You just called 74 million Americans deplorable.

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Let me put a finer point on this.

People willing to vote for a multi-bankrupt, convicted sex predator, who has demonstrably tried to start an insurrection and destroy basic American values like "This Nation of Immigrants", are utterly deplorable with regard to their political allegiance to evil and anti American values.

They might also be excellent people in a host of other ways. But Trump is a known quantity. Supporting him and his plans is deplorable (and that's being charitable about it)
Tom

southernhybrid said:

BH said:

I don't understand my mother who is a Trump supporter and rabidly so. She is rather educated and worked in a hospital lab for twenty years. My sister is the same way, though listening to Trump and the ant-ivaxers and anti-maskers cost her husband his life. He had a masters and sister is well educated with a four year degree teaching school. It's sad they made dumb choices and he ended up dead. He was a good man just wouldn't trust anything anyone "left" said because they disagreed with his moral stances on things like abortion. If you believe abortion should be legal then everything else you say including water is wet is suspect. To me this crap with Trump is personal. Listening to him got people killed or he allowed people to speak about things they had no business talking about that got people killed like masks do no good. And the fact he tried to be Napoleon light on January 6th and got people hurt or killed for no reason makes me vomit.

Click to expand...

I feel for you. I have a friend, although we rarely keep in touch any longer, who was an RN, who I worked with briefly before I retired. She was a very good person, as far as being compassionate and giving good care to her patients. She was about to be married to a man she has met online. They were both in their early 70s and they were both Trump supporters. They refused the vaccines, didn't wear masks and were out and about during the height of the pandemic. Sadly, he died from COVID and she was hospitalized for a few weeks with COVID. Now she spends most of her time at home, can no longer drive, probably has some symptoms of long COVID. I have no idea if she still supports Trump, but she voted for him twice and proudly had a Trump sign in her yard. Like you, I know people who were sucked into the Trump cult, and made choices due to him, despite being otherwise smart, kind, caring people.

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One thing to consider is that Trump doesn't matter at all. There is a ton of overemphasis on Trump. While is kind of has the reins of the base, the base barely grew at all and is actually just the Republican party base. You've got the diehard Trumpers, and while a few of them didn't vote before Trump, most of them likely did.

Almost all of these people would be voting for whomever the Republican was. So that tells me the issue here is the generation (x2) of propaganda on the radio and cable news. These people ingest this news all day, AM radio day time, Cable news in the evening. While Trump is a magnifier of the movement, it is the lies about CRT, transgenders, etc.. that is propagated by the propaganda machine that is driving the movement.

RamblingFool said:

You just called 74 million Americans deplorable.

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As a professional physicist and theoretical mathematician, I have to offer a correction:
37 million Americans.

The fact that I agree that they are deplorable has nothing to do with my mathematical process or conclusion.



* I am neither a physicist nor a mathematician, but still...

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but it seems the original post argues that civil discourse should not involve lowering one's standards to make a convincing argument. While there are some other forgivably flawed points, I agree with that general sentiment. The flaw lies in assuming that high standards can be reached and understood by individuals who have decidedly lowered theirs.

Jimmy Higgins said:

While Trump is a magnifier of the movement, it is the lies about CRT, transgenders, etc.. that is propagated by the propaganda machine that is driving the movement.

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Trump the Magnifier!
Trump The Magnificent Magnifier!
The Maganificent Maganifier!


Yeah, that's all he is.
However a bigass magnifier (and you get a big ass magnifier as a free bonus!) is a required element for the continuity of the movement.
I truly believe that it will take either another "mule" (Asimov reference) or several decades, for that movement to reassemble itself upon Trump's approaching demise.