Why it's ok to be a rambling fool.

[RamblingFool]

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but it seems the original post argues that civil discourse should not involve lowering one's standards to make a convincing argument. While there are some other forgivably flawed points, I agree with that general sentiment. The flaw lies in assuming that high standards can be reached and understood by individuals who have decidedly lowered theirs.

Especially online where we are all anonymous.

 

[Elixir]

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but it seems the original post argues that civil discourse should not involve lowering one's standards to make a convincing argument. While there are some other forgivably flawed points, I agree with that general sentiment. The flaw lies in assuming that high standards can be reached and understood by individuals who have decidedly lowered theirs.

Especially online where we are all anonymous.

One of the nice things about this place …
Not so very anonymous.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't understand my mother who is a Trump supporter and rabidly so. She is rather educated and worked in a hospital lab for twenty years. My sister is the same way, though listening to Trump and the ant-ivaxers and anti-maskers cost her husband his life. He had a masters and sister is well educated with a four year degree teaching school. It's sad they made dumb choices and he ended up dead. He was a good man just wouldn't trust anything anyone "left" said because they disagreed with his moral stances on things like abortion. If you believe abortion should be legal then everything else you say including water is wet is suspect. To me this crap with Trump is personal. Listening to him got people killed or he allowed people to speak about things they had no business talking about that got people killed like masks do no good. And the fact he tried to be Napoleon light on January 6th and got people hurt or killed for no reason makes me vomit.

I feel for you. I have a friend, although we rarely keep in touch any longer, who was an RN, who I worked with briefly before I retired. She was a very good person, as far as being compassionate and giving good care to her patients. She was about to be married to a man she has met online. They were both in their early 70s and they were both Trump supporters. They refused the vaccines, didn't wear masks and were out and about during the height of the pandemic. Sadly, he died from COVID and she was hospitalized for a few weeks with COVID. Now she spends most of her time at home, can no longer drive, probably has some symptoms of long COVID. I have no idea if she still supports Trump, but she voted for him twice and proudly had a Trump sign in her yard. Like you, I know people who were sucked into the Trump cult, and made choices due to him, despite being otherwise smart, kind, caring people.

One thing to consider is that Trump doesn't matter at all. There is a ton of overemphasis on Trump. While is kind of has the reins of the base, the base barely grew at all and is actually just the Republican party base. You've got the diehard Trumpers, and while a few of them didn't vote before Trump, most of them likely did.

Almost all of these people would be voting for whomever the Republican was. So that tells me the issue here is the generation (x2) of propaganda on the radio and cable news. These people ingest this news all day, AM radio day time, Cable news in the evening. While Trump is a magnifier of the movement, it is the lies about CRT, transgenders, etc.. that is propagated by the propaganda machine that is driving the movement.

Actually, if you recall, a lot of people who voted for Trump, at least in 2016, had voted for Obama prior to that, so they weren't all Republicans. I do agree that certain so called news stations are a big part of the problem. When I was still working in 2016, most of my patients who didn't have dementia, had their TVs tuned in to Fox all day long. I had a few patients who were Democrats who loved discussing politics with me. One lady was appalled that her son was a Trump supporter and so was one of the men, who I was more like a friend to, than a nurse. The Trump supporters come from all backgrounds. My bro in law voted for him because he's wealthy and he wanted those tax breaks. He admitted that to us.

I had read exactly what Hillary said when she used the word deplorable, earlier today. She said that about half of the Trump supporters felt the government had let them down and the other half were deplorables, as in racist, sexist, homophobic. She was hoping to sway those who felt the government had let them down. She did win the popular vote, but we have the damn electoral college that we have to win this time.

 

[Angry Floof]

Because that is exactly what we all think of each other when the other is on the other side.
Republicans are rambling fools. Democrats too. Americans in general if we disagree with their points of view.
Civil discourse has died. Maybe this place will be the exception, it would be grand if that turns out to be true.

I just responded to someone who posted the acronym TDS to explain away any criticism of Trump. THAT is so lame, it is laughable.
Meanwhile Joe sniffs hair, poops his pants, and falls asleep
It's like NO ONE wants to actually talk about policy, direction of the country, the future for our children, or discuss a topic with a level head and some researched material

It's all repeating whatever nonsense is spouted off on FOX or CNN.

So, I appreciate rambling fools, as you can all see, I started this thread rambling. But don't be a babbling fool. There IS a difference.

Thanks.

Gee, I wonder what side of humanity this one is on.

"bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" is the mantra of people who don't actually know what's going on and have no principles or conscience to help them tell the difference, so this is what they say to try to appear to be reasonable and above it all. You're not fooling anybody.

Well, let's tactic your rebuttal. Disrespectful, petulant and childish come to mind. Not very original either.
However, I clearly did NOT say "bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" as I DID say............

ONE SIDE is MORE extreme, the MAGA side. SO yes, one side is worse, but does that give our side an excuse to be uncivil to them?

Of course they are and we have to keep pointing that out. However, focusing on Trump's tan, or his weight, or how often he stumbles or walks awkwardly, or mocking him for riding around in a golf cart, is as immature as they saying Biden sniffs hair and poops his pants. That was the POINT of my OP. We can certainly challenge THEM on their world view and support of Trump, but it's the kindergarten grade insults and put downs that make us look just like them. Think about it.

However, your childish rebuttal spoke volumes about the maturity level we find on debate forums nowadays, and only enhanced my theme about our inability to have civil conversations with each other. YOU must be so proud!

View attachment 46946

Nope, clutching pearls about others' tone is not at all important in discussions about real people's lives that are absolutely affected by numbers of people thinking both sides are the same, or when called out, claim that being polite is the important thing in lieu of actually knowing what's at stake.

But I still would like to know what ARE your values and principles? If you have values and principles, how do they bear on the very serious issues, issues where you must choose a side. If you choose not to protect society and the most vulnerable among us from fascist movements that absolutely will target them for abuse and imprisonment, will turn a blind eye to vigilantes harming them, will imprison its critics, and will destroy any institutions or laws that get in their way, then you support fascism.

So whether you're a Trumpsucker or you really are (secretly?) concerned about our democracy being subsumed to the maga world, you do you. But if you come here and act like civility is the important thing, I absolutely will call you out and question you. "My views are vapid and/or vile, but never mind that, you'd better be civil" deserves zero respect.

There was a time when we weren't choosing between a pretense of civility and real people's actual lives. It is an understatement to say that this is not that time.

 

[Elixir]

"bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" is the mantra of people who don't actually know what's going on and have no principles or conscience to help them tell the difference, so this is what they say to try to appear to be reasonable and above it all. You're not fooling anybody.

I think RF is just saying that the fact that something is true, doesn't mean it needs saying. That's a rule with which I agree wholeheartedly, and plead guilty of violating. Repeatedly.
Which things DO need to be aired? Can we discuss?

 

[Elixir]

your childish rebuttal spoke volumes about the maturity level we find on debate forums nowadays, and only enhanced my theme about our inability to have civil conversations with each other. YOU must be so proud!

Most excellent.
Thank you for contributing your insights regarding the psychological mechanisms of democratic election. Your honest appraisal of the pros or cons of both sides is just as well appreciated. The contributions your observations have made to the overall civility level here, are invaluable.

 

[Elixir]

But seriously - what I really like about this place is that there are people here - very smart people, the best people - whom I like very much, yet with whom I routinely disagree on some stuff.
Well, really, it's reading the good stuff people post about random stuff.
And cat pictures.
Mostly cat pictures.
.

.


IT'S A FUCKING BACKWATER INTERNET FORUM NOBODY EVER HEARD OF.
If anyone wants to spend their time getting their panties in a twist over something someone else posted, they should be grateful to have panties and the opportunity to twist them before a very limited audience. Welcome, RF!

 

[Angry Floof]

"bOFe SiDeS r tEh sAmEz" is the mantra of people who don't actually know what's going on and have no principles or conscience to help them tell the difference, so this is what they say to try to appear to be reasonable and above it all. You're not fooling anybody.

I think RF is just saying that the fact that something is true, doesn't mean it needs saying. That's a rule with which I agree wholeheartedly, and plead guilty of violating. Repeatedly.
Which things DO need to be aired? Can we discuss?

I never said what needs to be aired and what doesn't, and never said not to discuss anything.

The "both sides are the same" garbage absolutely should be addressed because if you don't qualify that statement to make clear which side actually isn't civil, you're not talking about anything relevant and you're essentially supporting fascism even if you're not aware of what's going on. I told RF, you do you. But if someone's just here for superficial babble about politics, expect us to question some things.

I call it where I see it, and only if I feel like it. I know I have a sharp tongue, but I wish people would stop acting like that means I'm doing something I'm not. I'm 58 and I like me this way, and we're all adults here.

 

[ZiprHead]

One thing to consider is that Trump doesn't matter at all. There is a ton of overemphasis on Trump. While is kind of has the reins of the base, the base barely grew at all and is actually just the Republican party base. You've got the diehard Trumpers, and while a few of them didn't vote before Trump, most of them likely did.

Sorry. I cannot agree with this. Trump is the center, the cult of personality. No one can replace him. Certainly JD Vance cannot replace him.

 

[Elixir]

But if someone's just here for superficial babble about politics, expect us to question some things.

Wouldn’t superficial babble about politics be an improvement? I mean if it was really civil? It’s not that high a bar, right? Somebody posts something so stupid it makes your eyes bleed, so you rip their head off? Where does it end? At least it should be something about politics or politicians, since this is a politics subforum.

But relationship coaching is always important, Floof. Both sides can benefit from it. Even those Republican dickweed fucking slimeballs who only use their exceptionally good manners to charm the pants off women, can get better at it. We should never be satisfied with our past performance.

 

[bilby]

IT'S A FUCKING BACKWATER INTERNET FORUM NOBODY EVER HEARD OF.

That's easy for you to say. I happen to live here.

 

[Elixir]

IT'S A FUCKING BACKWATER INTERNET FORUM NOBODY EVER HEARD OF.

That's easy for you to say. I happen to live here.

Admit it- you live here because you enjoy the privacy!

 

[Politesse]

IT'S A FUCKING BACKWATER INTERNET FORUM NOBODY EVER HEARD OF.
If anyone wants to spend their time getting their panties in a twist over something someone else posted, they should be grateful to have panties and the opportunity to twist them before a very limited audience. Welcome, RF!

Aw, c'mon, we're famous enough to have our very own Russian propaganda agent assigned to us!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

One thing to consider is that Trump doesn't matter at all. There is a ton of overemphasis on Trump. While is kind of has the reins of the base, the base barely grew at all and is actually just the Republican party base. You've got the diehard Trumpers, and while a few of them didn't vote before Trump, most of them likely did.

Sorry. I cannot agree with this. Trump is the center, the cult of personality. No one can replace him. Certainly JD Vance cannot replace him.

But look at the numbers. The percentage of popular votes Trump has received is far from overwhelming. Reagan did much better! George W. Bush did better. Mitt Romney did better and he lost!

Trump hasn't broken 47% of the popular vote.

GOP share of popular vote in General Election
2000 - 47.9
2004 - 50.7
2008 - 45.7
2012 - 47.2
2016 - 46.1
2020 - 46.8

The last four elections prior to Trump, Trump has beaten only one Republican candidate in the popular vote. Trump has a rabid base, but that base isn't huge. If they wanted to try to seize power, it could be close, but otherwise, Trump isn't engaging a huge percentage of people, any more so than previous Republicans. He just has a rabidly fierce loyal base of supporters. So while the cult of personality of Trump is real, the actual threat is the Heritage Foundation and the like. And they aren't going anywhere.

 

[Politesse]

One thing to consider is that Trump doesn't matter at all. There is a ton of overemphasis on Trump. While is kind of has the reins of the base, the base barely grew at all and is actually just the Republican party base. You've got the diehard Trumpers, and while a few of them didn't vote before Trump, most of them likely did.

Sorry. I cannot agree with this. Trump is the center, the cult of personality. No one can replace him. Certainly JD Vance cannot replace him.

This is both true and untrue. He is the nucleus now, no doubt. But dangerous cults of personality are a regular occurence in American politics. Trump's was not the first, and it is unlikely that his will be the last.

 

[pood]

The last four elections prior to Trump, Trump has beaten only one Republican candidate in the popular vote. Trump has a rabid base, but that base isn't huge. If they wanted to try to seize power, it could be close, but otherwise, Trump isn't engaging a huge percentage of people, any more so than previous Republicans. He just has a rabidly fierce loyal base of supporters. So while the cult of personality of Trump is real, the actual threat is the Heritage Foundation and the like. And they aren't going anywhere.

Hitler got into office with about 33 percent of the vote, iirc.

 

[Elixir]

IT'S A FUCKING BACKWATER INTERNET FORUM NOBODY EVER HEARD OF.
If anyone wants to spend their time getting their panties in a twist over something someone else posted, they should be grateful to have panties and the opportunity to twist them before a very limited audience. Welcome, RF!

Aw, c'mon, we're famous enough to have our very own Russian propaganda agent assigned to us!

Just barely. And I suspect it’s a leftover, deemed unsuitable for normal propagandizing.

 

[pood]

Except for Barbos, we’re not exactly overrun by Russian bots.

 

[Elixir]

Except for Barbos, we’re not exactly overrun by Russian bots.

Right, and we were alotted a defective one that trips over its own tongue. It’s almost like they don’t care about us!!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The last four elections prior to Trump, Trump has beaten only one Republican candidate in the popular vote. Trump has a rabid base, but that base isn't huge. If they wanted to try to seize power, it could be close, but otherwise, Trump isn't engaging a huge percentage of people, any more so than previous Republicans. He just has a rabidly fierce loyal base of supporters. So while the cult of personality of Trump is real, the actual threat is the Heritage Foundation and the like. And they aren't going anywhere.

Hitler got into office with about 33 percent of the vote, iirc.

Gonna be hard to get into the White House with 33% of the vote.