Split Biden or Trump too old?

[Derec]

I wish people would just drop this misguided meme that Hillary won the 2016 election, or that the popular vote is relevant.
Baseball games are won by most runs, NOT by most hits. Not by most total bases.

Exactly!

And U.S. Presidential elections are won by most electoral votes. One of the few intelligent things Trump ever said is that he would have campaigned differently if he was trying for most popular votes.

I have said that before. If the president was elected by popular vote, campaigns and even the issues getting most attention would be different. Candidates would not be focusing on the handful of battleground states but rather on major population centers. The whole ballgame would be very different.

Conversely, Hillary's campaign stupidly took its "eyes off the ball," trying to win popular votes and forgetting that the electoral votes of states like Pennsylvania were all that mattered.

I think so too. Her campaign wasn't run very strategically.

 

[Derec]

Six.

Three. Hydrogen. Helium. Metal.

 

[Elixir]

I think so too. Her campaign wasn't run very strategically.

I hindsight that’s easy to see.
I had no criticism if her “strategy” at the time, just a foreboding sense during her campaign that her sense of entitlement to the Dem nomination (I favored Bernie) had carried through to a complacency born of the misguided notion that she could never lose to a jerk like Trump.
it was at the local Dem caucus that I saw the stark differences in Bernie and Hillary’s voters. The Hillaroids were all dressed to the nines, decked out in finery, while the Bernie’s were in jeans. That was my first sense that things were not going to go well.

 

[Elixir]

Six.

Three. Hydrogen. Helium. Metal.

Metal is an element? Not.

 

[Derec]

Nope: McCain’s VP had to be a woman to prove that the GOP was t as anti-woman as it’s legislative initiatives seemed to suggest.

First of all, it's "its". That's the possessive pronoun. "It's" is the contraction of "it is".
Also, I disagree. The nomination of Palin was to appeal to PUMAs ("Party Unity My Ass").
Why Clinton voters say they won't support Obama
Many women support what you call "anti-woman [...] legislative initiatives". 53% of white women voted for Trump. Many women are pro-life.

Hillary was cursed by her history as wife of Slick Willy.

At most she was blursed by it. You may see her as "cursed" for his sexual dalliances or for being "Third Way" or whatever, but if she wasn't the wife of the Arkansas governor and later President, Hillary would most likely have worked as a lawyer in private practice her whole professional life. She certainly would not have been in the position to credibly run for president twice.

I personally strongly disliked Bill and struggled to like Hillary but I sure did very proudly vote for her. Nothing could have convinced me to vote for any ticket with Palin on it.

I could not bring myself to vote for either major candidates in 2016. Hillary for example penned an oped on cnn.com where she argued that women should be given more lenient sentences for the same crime than men. She seems to think that whenever a woman commits a crime, it must be some man's fault.

Side note: a former co-workers close relative was a college classmate of Hillary. The talk of the day was that she’d be the first female POTUS. Sadly she lost her race to tragic results.

I think Biden should have ran in 2016. He would have won against Trump. Not because she is a woman, but because she was a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign. And it would make a world of difference if Biden was ending his 2nd term at 82 rather than hoping to start it.

A bunch of people refused to vote for her because she is a woman.

[citation needed]

 

[Derec]

Metal is an element? Not.

 

[TomC]

Romney 2024?
Why not, he is over four years younger than Biden.

Romney is far and away the best potential Republican candidate I can think of. But he's a RINO. A holdout from when the GOP had morals and integrity. He'd never get anywhere with the TeaParty GOP that dominates what's left of the conservatives.

It's a nice thought, but it won't happen.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Nope: McCain’s VP had to be a woman to prove that the GOP was t as anti-woman as it’s legislative initiatives seemed to suggest.

First of all, it's "its". That's the possessive pronoun. "It's" is the contraction of "it is".
Also, I disagree. The nomination of Palin was to appeal to PUMAs ("Party Unity My Ass").
Why Clinton voters say they won't support Obama
Many women support what you call "anti-woman [...] legislative initiatives". 53% of white women voted for Trump. Many women are pro-life.

Hillary was cursed by her history as wife of Slick Willy.

At most she was blursed by it. You may see her as "cursed" for his sexual dalliances or for being "Third Way" or whatever, but if she wasn't the wife of the Arkansas governor and later President, Hillary would most likely have worked as a lawyer in private practice her whole professional life. She certainly would not have been in the position to credibly run for president twice.

I personally strongly disliked Bill and struggled to like Hillary but I sure did very proudly vote for her. Nothing could have convinced me to vote for any ticket with Palin on it.

I could not bring myself to vote for either major candidates in 2016. Hillary for example penned an oped on cnn.com where she argued that women should be given more lenient sentences for the same crime than men. She seems to think that whenever a woman commits a crime, it must be some man's fault.
Side note: a former co-workers close relative was a college classmate of Hillary. The talk of the day was that she’d be the first female POTUS. Sadly she lost her race to tragic results.

I think Biden should have ran in 2016. He would have won against Trump. Not because she is a woman, but because she was a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign. And it would make a world of difference if Biden was ending his 2nd term at 82 rather than hoping to start it.

A bunch of people refused to vote for her because she is a woman.

[citation needed]
[/QUOTE]
Derek: sincere request: Please get the fuck off of spelling/grammatical 'errors.' At least half of them are when my phone decides to change word choices for me and otherwise autocorrects and I don't always catch them. Also, while I am a far, far better typist than I was when I was a young person, I've never been and I'm never gonna be a good typist. My speed is pretty good. My accuracy rather stinks. So please don't waste time and I won't waste time over your spelling/grammatical/typing errors, which are fewer than mine but do exist in the positive number range.

Nope: McCain’s VP had to be a woman to prove that the GOP was t as anti-woman as it’s legislative initiatives seemed to suggest.

First of all, it's "its". That's the possessive pronoun. "It's" is the contraction of "it is".
Also, I disagree. The nomination of Palin was to appeal to PUMAs ("Party Unity My Ass").
Why Clinton voters say they won't support Obama
Many women support what you call "anti-woman [...] legislative initiatives". 53% of white women voted for Trump. Many women are pro-life.

Hillary was cursed by her history as wife of Slick Willy.

At most she was blursed by it. You may see her as "cursed" for his sexual dalliances or for being "Third Way" or whatever, but if she wasn't the wife of the Arkansas governor and later President, Hillary would most likely have worked as a lawyer in private practice her whole professional life. She certainly would not have been in the position to credibly run for president twice.

I personally strongly disliked Bill and struggled to like Hillary but I sure did very proudly vote for her. Nothing could have convinced me to vote for any ticket with Palin on it.

I could not bring myself to vote for either major candidates in 2016. Hillary for example penned an oped on cnn.com where she argued that women should be given more lenient sentences for the same crime than men. She seems to think that whenever a woman commits a crime, it must be some man's fault.
Side note: a former co-workers close relative was a college classmate of Hillary. The talk of the day was that she’d be the first female POTUS. Sadly she lost her race to tragic results.

I think Biden should have ran in 2016. He would have won against Trump. Not because she is a woman, but because she was a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign. And it would make a world of difference if Biden was ending his 2nd term at 82 rather than hoping to start it.

A bunch of people refused to vote for her because she is a woman.

[citation needed]
[/QUOTE]
So??????????

A bunch of people (of whom I know some) DID in fact refuse to vote for her because she's a woman. Some held their nose and voted for her because she was a woman, even though they despised Bill. Some voted for her in the primaries precisely BECAUSE Obama is black. Just as some voted for Obama precisely because he is male. Both sexism and racism were in play in 2016.

There was zero new info in that Salon article although I had never heard the term PUMA before, or had forgotten it as it is trite and not worth the energy to remember.

YES plenty of women DID feel as though, Obama having gotten his chance (some feeling that he cheated Hillary out of her chance, or that Hillary stepped aside graciously, with the understanding that her turn was next or probably half a dozen other reasons/escuses) , it was more than time for a woman to have a shot. I did not disagree. However I do think that it is possible that Biden might have had a better chance than Hillary in 2016 precisely because he is male and white and was associated with Obama--which would have also been his downfall for some. Frankly, after 8 years having the POTUS, the next POTUS is almost always of the other party.

I certainly DO wish that almost anyone in the world had beaten Trump in electoral votes, not just popular votes. The almost is because I am certain that there are those who are worse and would have done ever more damage but I'm tired from a long trip and none are leaping to mind right now. Regardless of what I think of the political climate, Trump so badly boffed COVID and cost hundreds of thousands of lives or more due to his ham-handedness and malevolence and out right interference with the medical community, his dishonesty, and his willingness and desire to fan the fuel of political differences when a real leader would have brought the country together to fight COVID together.

There are so many reasons that Trump was and is a horrible monster and a disaster. I don't think I need to spend any more time on them now.

 

[Derec]

I hindsight that’s easy to see.

Hindsight is always clearer. That does not mean that it was something that should have caught a professional presidential campaign by surprise.

I had no criticism if her “strategy” at the time, just a foreboding sense during her campaign that her sense of entitlement to the Dem nomination (I favored Bernie) had carried through to a complacency born of the misguided notion that she could never lose to a jerk like Trump.

Yes, there was a lot of entitlement. Both in the primaries and the general.

it was at the local Dem caucus that I saw the stark differences in Bernie and Hillary’s voters. The Hillaroids were all dressed to the nines, decked out in finery, while the Bernie’s were in jeans. That was my first sense that things were not going to go well.

Why do you think dressing to the nines was the harbinger of doom?
I disagree with Bernie on many of his policy positions, but personally I find him very likable, esp. in 2016. In 2020, he became more standard fauxgressive, whereas he was more independent in 2016.

 

[Derec]

It's a nice thought, but it won't happen.

Yes, I know ...

 

[Derec]

Derek: sincere request: Please get the fuck off of spelling/grammatical 'errors.'

Not to mention formatting ones, like in this post. I.e. your orphaned quote tags.

So please don't waste time and I won't waste time over your spelling/grammatical/typing errors, which are fewer than mine but do exist in the positive number range.

I will try.

So??????????

What exactly are you referring to?

A bunch of people (of whom I know some) DID in fact refuse to vote for her because she's a woman.

How many is "a bunch"? Enough to have cost her the election? And you acknowledged that some voted for her because she was a woman. Those two trends cancel one another.

There was zero new info in that Salon article although I had never heard the term PUMA before, or had forgotten it as it is trite and not worth the energy to remember.

Trite or not, it shows many Hillary supporters (most of them women) were salty about her primary loss.

YES plenty of women DID feel as though, Obama having gotten his chance (some feeling that he cheated Hillary out of her chance, or that Hillary stepped aside graciously, with the understanding that her turn was next or probably half a dozen other reasons/escuses) ,

This idea of it being "her turn" blinded Dems to her obvious shortcomings as a candidate.

it was more than time for a woman to have a shot. I did not disagree. However I do think that it is possible that Biden might have had a better chance than Hillary in 2016 precisely because he is male and white and was associated with Obama--

Hillary is white too and I do not think him being a man would have mattered that much - but his better political instincts and experience as Obama's veep would have.

which would have also been his downfall for some. Frankly, after 8 years having the POTUS, the next POTUS is almost always of the other party.

Not almost always. Reagan-Bush had 12 years. Roosevelt-Truman had 20. Harding-Coolidge-Hoover had 12. McKinley-Roosevelt-Taft 16. Grant-Hayes-Garfield-Arthur 16 as well. That's just since the Civil War - I did not look before as the party system was much less stable anyway. Note that Gore and Hillary very narrowly missed their chance. Both races were very winnable with more likable candidates and/or better strategy. Not to mention without spoilers (Ralph Nader, Jill Stein) and idiots confused by ballots.

egardless of what I think of the political climate, Trump so badly boffed COVID and cost hundreds of thousands of lives or more due to his ham-handedness and malevolence and out right interference with the medical community, his dishonesty, and his willingness and desire to fan the fuel of political differences when a real leader would have brought the country together to fight COVID together.

Can't agree with you more. Trump is a petty, vindictive manchild who belongs nowhere near any real power. Chimp with a machine gun would be too kind a description.

 

[Elixir]

Why do you think dressing to the nines was the harbinger of doom?

I thought I was clear: it was the polarity; haves vs have nots. That impression only intensified over the course of the ensuing debates/ discussions. Basically, Hillary’s sense of self entitlement seemed to embody itself in her caucus members.
The enthusiasm gap was palpable

 

[Toni]

Why do you think dressing to the nines was the harbinger of doom?

I thought I was clear: it was the polarity; haves vs have nots. That impression only intensified over the course of the ensuing debates/ discussions. Basically, Hillary’s sense of self entitlement seemed to embody itself in her caucus members.
The enthusiasm gap was palpable

See, this ‘Hillary’s sense of entitlement’ ie: she was arguably the most qualified candidate ever. And would have been seen as such if her balls were between her legs instead of on her chest is exactly the kind of sexism I was referencing.

 

[Toni]

Derek: sincere request: Please get the fuck off of spelling/grammatical 'errors.'

Not to mention formatting ones, like in this post. I.e. your orphaned quote tags.

So please don't waste time and I won't waste time over your spelling/grammatical/typing errors, which are fewer than mine but do exist in the positive number range.

I will try.

So??????????

What exactly are you referring to?

A bunch of people (of whom I know some) DID in fact refuse to vote for her because she's a woman.

How many is "a bunch"? Enough to have cost her the election? And you acknowledged that some voted for her because she was a woman. Those two trends cancel one another.

There was zero new info in that Salon article although I had never heard the term PUMA before, or had forgotten it as it is trite and not worth the energy to remember.

Trite or not, it shows many Hillary supporters (most of them women) were salty about her primary loss.

YES plenty of women DID feel as though, Obama having gotten his chance (some feeling that he cheated Hillary out of her chance, or that Hillary stepped aside graciously, with the understanding that her turn was next or probably half a dozen other reasons/escuses) ,

This idea of it being "her turn" blinded Dems to her obvious shortcomings as a candidate.

it was more than time for a woman to have a shot. I did not disagree. However I do think that it is possible that Biden might have had a better chance than Hillary in 2016 precisely because he is male and white and was associated with Obama--

Hillary is white too and I do not think him being a man would have mattered that much - but his better political instincts and experience as Obama's veep would have.

which would have also been his downfall for some. Frankly, after 8 years having the POTUS, the next POTUS is almost always of the other party.

Not almost always. Reagan-Bush had 12 years. Roosevelt-Truman had 20. Harding-Coolidge-Hoover had 12. McKinley-Roosevelt-Taft 16. Grant-Hayes-Garfield-Arthur 16 as well. That's just since the Civil War - I did not look before as the party system was much less stable anyway. Note that Gore and Hillary very narrowly missed their chance. Both races were very winnable with more likable candidates and/or better strategy. Not to mention without spoilers (Ralph Nader, Jill Stein) and idiots confused by ballots.

egardless of what I think of the political climate, Trump so badly boffed COVID and cost hundreds of thousands of lives or more due to his ham-handedness and malevolence and out right interference with the medical community, his dishonesty, and his willingness and desire to fan the fuel of political differences when a real leader would have brought the country together to fight COVID together.

Can't agree with you more. Trump is a petty, vindictive manchild who belongs nowhere near any real power. Chimp with a machine gun would be too kind a description.

I was referencing modern times, i.e. post New Deal.

Hillary IS white as is Biden. Hillary had sexism working against her. Obama had to deal with racism. I was an enthusiastic supporter of Obama and when Hillary got the nomination, I supported her and would have supported virtually anyone against Trump but would have supported Hillary against any one in the running for the GOP.

I also think that there was an issue of Bill’s baggage ( and everybody has some baggage, but especially Bill) becoming Hillary’s baggage.

 

[Elixir]

she was arguably the most qualified candidate ever.

I vehemently pick this nit. She WAS the most qualified candidate ever. But if it was arguable to any effect, then it was the very complacency mentioned above that caused them to fail to make the argument
In the end, we were on an Obama-induced high and too many people voted for the phony TV personality, and weren’t too worried about taking a flier on a supposed “outsider”. Too many stayed home because Hillary had been Hillarized by the GOP for three decades. The rest is history.

 

[Toni]

she was arguably the most qualified candidate ever.

I vehemently pick this nit. She WAS the most qualified candidate ever. But if it was arguable to any effect, then it was the very complacency mentioned above that caused them to fail to make the argument
In the end, we were on an Obama-induced high and too many people voted for the phony TV personality, and weren’t too worried about taking a flier on a supposed “outsider”. Too many stayed home because Hillary had been Hillarized by the GOP for three decades. The rest is history.

Yeah, that job the GOP did on Hillary was what I meant by sexism. Their efforts were sexism. And so was the effectiveness of their efforts.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why do you think dressing to the nines was the harbinger of doom?

I thought I was clear: it was the polarity; haves vs have nots. That impression only intensified over the course of the ensuing debates/ discussions. Basically, Hillary’s sense of self entitlement seemed to embody itself in her caucus members.
The enthusiasm gap was palpable

See, this ‘Hillary’s sense of entitlement’ ie: she was arguably the most qualified candidate ever. And would have been seen as such if her balls were between her legs instead of on her chest is exactly the kind of sexism I was referencing.

Eisenhower, HW Bush were more qualified.

 

[Toni]

Why do you think dressing to the nines was the harbinger of doom?

I thought I was clear: it was the polarity; haves vs have nots. That impression only intensified over the course of the ensuing debates/ discussions. Basically, Hillary’s sense of self entitlement seemed to embody itself in her caucus members.
The enthusiasm gap was palpable

See, this ‘Hillary’s sense of entitlement’ ie: she was arguably the most qualified candidate ever. And would have been seen as such if her balls were between her legs instead of on her chest is exactly the kind of sexism I was referencing.

Eisenhower, HW Bush were more qualified.

How was Eisenhower more qualified, how was HW Bush more qualified?

 

[Derec]

I thought I was clear: it was the polarity; haves vs have nots.

I do not think it was. Clothing is not a good indication of "haveness". A guy in a t-shirt and jeans can be better off than somebody dressing up. He is just not a slave to fashion.

Not that Zuck is a Bernie Bro or anything. He is just an example that clothes are not indicative of wealth.

That impression only intensified over the course of the ensuing debates/ discussions. Basically, Hillary’s sense of self entitlement seemed to embody itself in her caucus members.
The enthusiasm gap was palpable

I can believe that.

 

[Elixir]

Clothing is not a good indication of "haveness".

Not without context … there was plenty of context. As I explained. The Hillaroids were dressed like millionaires - or wannabe millionaires. Zooks is dressed like a billionaire. But again - the strut is essential.