Breakdown In Civil Order

[bilby]

And why on earth do you think it's a "dystopian reality" to want violent criminals removed from society?

It's not. Every country does it, mostly with some success.

It's a dystopian reality to have a nation so mindlessly enamoured by incarceration as a solution to crime, that more than half a percent of the population are behind bars, and yet crime is not notably less prevalent than in any other country.

While the United States represents about 4.2 percent of the world's population, it houses around 20 percent of the world's prisoners.

Wikipedia

Clearly your proposed solution doesn't work. It sounds good in theory, but observation always trumps theory, and locking criminals up to reduce crime rates is observed not to be effective.

 

[Emily Lake]

Okay, seriously, are you in support of letting people with a well known documented history of violence and a likelihood to reoffend continue hurting people?

No.

Are you really of the opinion that the only way to stop that from happening is to imprison all the "bad people" for life?

Oooh, that's a fun retreat and a highly entertaining way to reframe the whole situation.

Let's just change the semantics. We're not talking about repeat offenders with demonstrated histories of burtality, murder, and rape. No, they're just "bad people". And then it makes it really easy to point the finger of derision my way and insinuate that somehow I'm the bad guy because I care more about the rights of the innocent victims than I do for the criminal. Let's just hyperbolize the ever loving fuck out of this and pretend that Emily wants to lock shoplifters up for their entire life.

So much fun.

 

[Emily Lake]

Clearly your proposed solution doesn't work. It sounds good in theory, but observation always trumps theory, and locking criminals up to reduce crime rates is observed not to be effective.

Well letting the ones with well documented histories of violence run around free certainly doesn't seem like an effective approach either.

So I guess we're at an impasse. You've chosen to pretend I want every minor transgression locked in a dungeon forever. If that lets you justify your apparent view of letting known threats to others walk around unhindered, then knock yourself out.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Okay, seriously, are you in support of letting people with a well known documented history of violence and a likelihood to reoffend continue hurting people?

No.

Are you really of the opinion that the only way to stop that from happening is to imprison all the "bad people" for life?

Oooh, that's a fun retreat and a highly entertaining way to reframe the whole situation.

Let's just change the semantics. We're not talking about repeat offenders with demonstrated histories of burtality, murder, and rape. No, they're just "bad people". And then it makes it really easy to point the finger of derision my way and insinuate that somehow I'm the bad guy because I care more about the rights of the innocent victims than I do for the criminal. Let's just hyperbolize the ever loving fuck out of this and pretend that Emily wants to lock shoplifters up for their entire life.

So much fun.

Are you serious? You asked an absolutely loaded question that you knew wasn't true of bilby... and then get upset when it is turned back to you?

 

[bilby]

Oooh, that's a fun retreat and a highly entertaining way to reframe the whole situation.

No, it's me mirroring your hyperbolic dichotomy in the (apparently vain) hope that you would recognise the ridiculous nature of your own argument.

 

[TSwizzle]

The LA Metro is dangerous these days.;

A man was fatally stabbed on a platform at the Pershing Square Metro station in downtown Los Angeles Thursday evening. The stabbing happened just before 5:20 p.m. after an argument between two men, according to the Los Angeles Police Department. Police said the suspect took out a knife and stabbed the 23-year-old victim. The victim was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The suspect fled the scene and remains on the loose, police said. "It is distressing that a senseless act of violence occurred within our Metro system," Metro said in a statement. "Safety is, and always has been Metro's utmost priority and we are deeply committed to providing a secure environment for our customers. Metro is working with the Los Angeles Police Department to investigate this incident."

News

The trains are used as mobile shelters by the homeless, junkies and mental patients so the Metro's commitment to safety is dubious.

 

[lpetrich]

The trains are used as mobile shelters by the homeless, junkies and mental patients so the Metro's commitment to safety is dubious.

Where do you want them to go? Don't point the finger at anyone else. I want *your* solution.

 

[TomC]

The trains are used as mobile shelters by the homeless, junkies and mental patients so the Metro's commitment to safety is dubious.

Where do you want them to go? Don't point the finger at anyone else. I want *your* solution.

Maybe deport them to Texas?

They're super Christian there. Texans really believe that God Himself came down from Heaven and announced:
"What you do for the least you do for Me!"
I'm sure that that the homeless, junkies, and mentally ill will be well cared for in a Christian place like Texas.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

A Democratic party official who pledged to 'dismantle' the Minneapolis Police Department in 2020 is now calling for tougher crime laws after suffering a violent carjacking outside her Minnesota home. Shivanthi Sathanandan, the Second Vice Chairwoman for the Democrat-Farmer-Labor party, took to Facebook on Wednesday to share the graphic outcome of the gunpoint attack on her driveway and to call for justice. Pictured with blood on her face, she said that she had suffered a broken leg, deep cuts on her head and body, and bruising after four young men carrying guns 'beat me violently down to the ground in front of our kids'. Sathanandan demanded swift consequences, calling to 'get illegal guns off our streets, catch these young people... and hold them in custody and prosecute them. Period.' The post went on to thank 'the incredible Minneapolis 4th Precinct Officers, Mayor Frey, Chief O'Hara, Paramedics, neighbors, friends and DFL family, who all came to our aide during this terrifying experience'. 'I'm so grateful for this community that wraps us in love,' she wrote. The photo quickly went viral as users pointed back to a 2020 post from Sathanandan's account calling to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department, writing that 'MPD has systematically failed the Black Community, they have failed ALL OF US... If you are still disagreeing with that BASIC FACT, I'm not sure what to say to you'.

She said: 'Look at my face. REMEMBER ME when you are thinking about supporting letting juveniles and young people out of custody to roam our streets instead of HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.' 'These criminals will not win. We need to take back our city. And this will not be the last you hear from me about this,' she went on.

Daily Mail

LMFAO.

 

[lpetrich]

If I was in her place, I would recognize that if those young men were caught and found guilty, they would receive stiff penalties. I would call for making police departments more efficient in catching criminals, and for making room in prisons for my attackers, making room like stopping drug warring and introducing alternative punishments for petty crimes. Don't fill the prisons with people who smoked weed and stole bottles of booze.

 

[bilby]

It's pretty clear that the US system is at best no more effective at reducing crime than any other in the OECD, despite the vastly larger proportion of the US population that are incarcerated.

The places with the lowest crime are places where punishments are generally mild, with short prison terms in relatively comfortable and relatively safe prisons, but where police departments are diligent in the investigation of crime, with a higher proportion of police funding going to detective and forensic work, rather than to uniformed "beat cops", resulting in an expectation amongst the population at large that criminals will not go unpunished.

Most criminals are far more effectively deterred by the likelihood of being caught and punished, than by the severity of the sentence if they are caught.

Short, easy, but almost inevitable, prison sentences are far more effective than long, harsh, but fairly unlikely ones, in reducing crime.

Police need to be inexorable. Fleeing the scene needs to be futile. Criminals need to expect that they will be brought to book. If they don't expect to be caught, then it's completely useless to impose harsh sentences on those few who are.

 

[TomC]

Most criminals are far more effectively deterred by the likelihood of being caught and punished, than by the severity of the sentence if they are caught.

I forget where I first heard this.
But it makes such total sense that I've never forgotten it.

The deterrent to crime isn't the severity of the punishment. It's the certainty of punishment.

Probably Isaac Asimov. The guy was a genius.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

Okay, seriously, are you in support of letting people with a well known documented history of violence and a likelihood to reoffend continue hurting people?

No.

Are you really of the opinion that the only way to stop that from happening is to imprison all the "bad people" for life?

Oooh, that's a fun retreat and a highly entertaining way to reframe the whole situation.

Let's just change the semantics. We're not talking about repeat offenders with demonstrated histories of burtality, murder, and rape. No, they're just "bad people". And then it makes it really easy to point the finger of derision my way and insinuate that somehow I'm the bad guy because I care more about the rights of the innocent victims than I do for the criminal. Let's just hyperbolize the ever loving fuck out of this and pretend that Emily wants to lock shoplifters up for their entire life.

So much fun.

Are you serious? You asked an absolutely loaded question that you knew wasn't true of bilby... and then get upset when it is turned back to you?

Are you certain you're reading that right?

Let's recap:

This particular criminal is a felon, a repeat offender, on probation for another serious crime and has has just killed three young women. He should have been locked up. You and Gascon prefer dangerous, violent criminals out doing their thing, I don't.

Really?

Where??

How much more tax are you happy to pay in order to make your dystopian vision a reality?

Yeah, I thought not.

bilby framed the mere idea of locking up repeat violent offenders as being a dystopian vision.

Me challenging that gets translated to me wanting to lock up "bad people". And the scare quotes aren't mine by the way. So yeah, I think you're a bit out of your tree on this one, Jimmy.

 

[Emily Lake]

Oooh, that's a fun retreat and a highly entertaining way to reframe the whole situation.

No, it's me mirroring your hyperbolic dichotomy in the (apparently vain) hope that you would recognise the ridiculous nature of your own argument.

You're the one who mocked the idea of keeping repeat violent offenders off the streets as a dystopian vision, and then went on to refer to those violent offenders as "bad people" complete with your own scare quotes.

And I'm the one with the ridiculous argument. SMDH.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oooh, that's a fun retreat and a highly entertaining way to reframe the whole situation.

Let's just change the semantics. We're not talking about repeat offenders with demonstrated histories of burtality, murder, and rape. No, they're just "bad people". And then it makes it really easy to point the finger of derision my way and insinuate that somehow I'm the bad guy because I care more about the rights of the innocent victims than I do for the criminal. Let's just hyperbolize the ever loving fuck out of this and pretend that Emily wants to lock shoplifters up for their entire life.

So much fun.

Are you serious? You asked an absolutely loaded question that you knew wasn't true of bilby... and then get upset when it is turned back to you?

Are you certain you're reading that right?

Yes. There is no way in heck you thought that bilby was "in support of letting people with a well known documented history of violence and a likelihood to reoffend continue hurting people."

If I'm mistaken, please let me know and I'll stop giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[bilby]

You're the one who mocked the idea of keeping repeat violent offenders off the streets as a dystopian vision

No, I mocked the idea of putting violent repeat offenders into prisons that already have insufficient capacity as a dystopian vision, and asked how much tax TSwizzle would be happy to pay to make that happen.

That you cannot apparently distinguish between "keeping repeat violent offenders off the streets" and "imprisoning more people in already overcrowded jails", is as disappointing as it is unsurprising.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If I was in her place, I would recognize that if those young men were caught and found guilty, they would receive stiff penalties. I would call for making police departments more efficient in catching criminals, and for making room in prisons for my attackers, making room like stopping drug warring and introducing alternative punishments for petty crimes. Don't fill the prisons with people who smoked weed and stole bottles of booze.

Drug war--check.
Weed--check.
Stole bottles of booze--part of the problem is that without prison there is no meaningful deterrent to a life of petty theft. Don't send them to jail for the first offense but if they keep doing it it's clear lesser measures don't work.

 

[bilby]

without prison there is no meaningful deterrent to a life of petty theft

Prison isn't a meaningful deterrent to a life of petty theft, unless petty thieves have a realistic expectation that they will be caught and convicted.

If a thousand petty thieves got a thousand one-month jail sentences, petty theft would quickly disappear.

But what actually happens is that a thousand petty thieves get maybe a hundred jail sentences, and the idiots in charge think that the reason this doesn't eliminate petty theft is that those who are convicted don't get life terms.

The problem isn't light sentences for convicts; It's low conviction rates for crimes.

Even recidivism looks like a good idea, when you know your last jail term was just misfortune, rather than an inevitable consequence of your misdeeds.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If I was in her place, I would recognize that if those young men were caught and found guilty, they would receive stiff penalties. I would call for making police departments more efficient in catching criminals, and for making room in prisons for my attackers, making room like stopping drug warring and introducing alternative punishments for petty crimes. Don't fill the prisons with people who smoked weed and stole bottles of booze.

Drug war--check.
Weed--check.
Stole bottles of booze--part of the problem is that without prison there is no meaningful deterrent to a life of petty theft. Don't send them to jail for the first offense but if they keep doing it it's clear lesser measures don't work.

As a simple accounting measure, is the cost of imprisoning a petty thief less expensive than the petty theft?

As a more sociological view, is imprisoning a petty thief going to make them steal less when they are released?

Theft sucks. Crime sucks. This isn't in dispute. The problem is many in the US want to punish people. It isn't about trying to fix something that is broken, they want someone to feel pain. And typical someone guilty of something they know they likely won't get into trouble doing... which is why driving drunk isn't as vilified by many as theft.

We had a war on drugs with lots of prison. We managed to stuff our prisons with people that took beds away from actually dangerous folk. And people are still buying, selling drugs.

 

[lpetrich]

If I was in her place, I would recognize that if those young men were caught and found guilty, they would receive stiff penalties. I would call for making police departments more efficient in catching criminals, and for making room in prisons for my attackers, making room like stopping drug warring and introducing alternative punishments for petty crimes. Don't fill the prisons with people who smoked weed and stole bottles of booze.

Drug war--check.
Weed--check.

I agree so far.

Stole bottles of booze--part of the problem is that without prison there is no meaningful deterrent to a life of petty theft. Don't send them to jail for the first offense but if they keep doing it it's clear lesser measures don't work.

That's why I propose ankle monitors -- that's much cheaper.

Though why stop with petty theft? Why not jail people for traffic violations? Someone with life imprisonment for running a red light will never run a red light ever again.