Breakdown In Civil Order

[Tigers!]

Car dealership tried to steal $959 from me yesterday with a fraudulent repair on top of the fake fuel induction service they pushed. Why isn't there any hand-wringing over the common fraud business model of car dealership service departments and some other service industries like lawn pest management and such (I have some good stories about Save-A-Tree up in New Jersey).

I bet if you started a thread on that topic, you'd get plenty of people to join in your complaints. But bitching that nobody is complaining about some other unrelated topic in this thread is... well... irrational.

So now would not be a good time to bring up my new toaster that only toasts one side of the bread?

1st world problem mate.
There is a thread somewhere about such things.

I forget. Is "whoosh" spelled with six "o"'s or seven?

The way you yanks bastardise the English language it could be 6 or 7 "o"s

 

[Tigers!]

I will return to my demand, therefore, for homeless encampment sites that will tolerate a high degree of abuse.

Could you clarify term "tolerate a high degree of abuse"? Do you mean to people or to infrastructure.

 

[Tigers!]

I appreciated Emily's earlier mention of shopping malls. Given that these malls are declining nationwide, repurposing them into apartments with added facilities like clinics, police stations, and mental health centers could benefit homeless communities. Granted it's funded well and staffed with the right people.

Edit: There's also plenty of space in the parking lots for fundraisers and local community events organized by churches and other groups.
Edit 2: Covering the entire roof in solar panels might help pay for the facility by selling to excess power to the grid granted power consumption is well managed.

Might even be able to give many of the homeless people there jobs operating and maintaining the facility.

Great idea but I want to ask about including police substations in such re-purposed malls. Do you think it might keep some people who could benefit from making use of such shelters?

Yeah, I would think this would be a problem for the people living there.

There would ideally need to be some sort of deputized or legally empowered conflict resolution mechanism available close to hand either way, however.

Police?

 

[Tigers!]

The old-fashioned square mall here is on the brink of closure, if not already defunct and on life support. With approximately 1 million square feet, it has the potential to be converted into about 800 apartments, complete with convenience stores, a sub police station, a medical facility, and even its own small fire department to serve the surrounding area.

At 1st and 2nd glance this is not a bad idea.
But why is the mall defunct in the first place? I am guessing financial reasons caused it to close.
Those same financial reasons will be be present if the reuse it as suggested
The perennial problem is always money.
Who pays, who handles it, to whom does it go? If we could resolve that we would go a long way to get a resolution.

 

[Toni]

The old-fashioned square mall here is on the brink of closure, if not already defunct and on life support. With approximately 1 million square feet, it has the potential to be converted into about 800 apartments, complete with convenience stores, a sub police station, a medical facility, and even its own small fire department to serve the surrounding area.

At 1st and 2nd glance this is not a bad idea.
But why is the mall defunct in the first place? I am guessing financial reasons caused it to close.
Those same financial reasons will be be present if the reuse it as suggested
The perennial problem is always money.
Who pays, who handles it, to whom does it go? If we could resolve that we would go a long way to get a resolution.

Malls in the US are closing because more and more people are choosing to purchase online.
So, money is the factor. Brick and mortar Stores/corporations are not sufficiently profitable.

Converting a shopping mall to housing for homeless people would require a large infusion of money to convert the space and also money to fund maintenance, services, etc. The presumption would be that this funding would come from grants and/or public funds.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The old-fashioned square mall here is on the brink of closure, if not already defunct and on life support. With approximately 1 million square feet, it has the potential to be converted into about 800 apartments, complete with convenience stores, a sub police station, a medical facility, and even its own small fire department to serve the surrounding area.

At 1st and 2nd glance this is not a bad idea.
But why is the mall defunct in the first place? I am guessing financial reasons caused it to close.
Those same financial reasons will be be present if the reuse it as suggested
The perennial problem is always money.
Who pays, who handles it, to whom does it go? If we could resolve that we would go a long way to get a resolution.

The internet has been reducing the demand for retail space.

 

[Jarhyn]

I will return to my demand, therefore, for homeless encampment sites that will tolerate a high degree of abuse.

Could you clarify term "tolerate a high degree of abuse"? Do you mean to people or to infrastructure.

How is this not clear enough? Read the subject of the immediate sentence. The site itself, the concrete object of the material area.

I do not believe anyone acting as if they are crazy enough to think I meant that they should tolerate abuse of people. Think about what that says about the people who jump to that conclusion for fuck sakes. If I were to believe earnestness, it would reflect you as a monster.

As to interpersonal abuse? I'm saying we should have a place that may be on the very boundaries of the law, a place at the bottom of the barrel, and indeed a region of the barrel that would eventually be "the bottom". This means, in some ways, enforcing rules. I don't know how you would do that in a warren at the bottom of the world, other than with lots of social workers who occasionally knock as if they were Mormons, but just posting when a side is getting cleaned, and a secure mental health facility meant to contain those who turn the system sour.

I would as soon hope people make decisions that keep them out of a gutter. For the people that seek the gutter, I would see them have the nicest possible gutter, or hole, or whatever to crawl into...

...As long as, wherever they are, they have every opportunity to choose something else, anything from psychiatric help, to addiction counseling, to career counseling, vocational training, and mail services, to real homes for people capable of taking care of them and doing work, even if that work isn't going to change much and is just "work that someone can do because someone likes what they make or do with their time and energy".

Interpersonal abuse should get someone sent to a more secure place with controlled exits, tho.

 

[Gospel]

The old-fashioned square mall here is on the brink of closure, if not already defunct and on life support. With approximately 1 million square feet, it has the potential to be converted into about 800 apartments, complete with convenience stores, a sub police station, a medical facility, and even its own small fire department to serve the surrounding area.

At 1st and 2nd glance this is not a bad idea.
But why is the mall defunct in the first place? I am guessing financial reasons caused it to close.
Those same financial reasons will be be present if the reuse it as suggested
The perennial problem is always money.
Who pays, who handles it, to whom does it go? If we could resolve that we would go a long way to get a resolution.

Public funding. The goal is to invest in individuals who are already incurring costs for the system, with the aim of both saving taxpayer money and transforming some of these individuals into contributing taxpayers.

Edit: In other words, we're already investing the funds; we just need to refine our strategy and streamline services. This approach could also attract private and local investors. Small businesses, overshadowed by giants like Amazon and Walmart, could set up shop rent-free in these facilities, offering jobs and generating taxable profits. This would create a vibrant community that attracts not only the homeless but also other patrons.

Fundraisers featuring performances by stars, local musicians and artists of all sorts could raise money and reduce taxpayer expenses. Additionally, the large parking lot could host food trucks, carnivals, and many other events, providing ample opportunities for community engagement and entertainment. Just throwing a vision out there.

 

[Gospel]

An approach like the one I envision would hopefully shift the perception of homelessness from a source of shame to one of compassion. This would help individuals experiencing homelessness to no longer feel like burdens or outcasts but feel recognized as members of our community because they truly are.

 

[TV and credit cards]

An issue with concentrating the homeless in a single area such as a shopping mall would draw the same problems as the concentration of public housing. Wasn't it decided years back that it was best to disburse low income subsidized families into communities rather than concentrate them into a few acres of land?

 

[Gospel]

The problem with public housing has never been about the concentration of residents; it has always been about poor execution. Issues like chronic underfunding, safety concerns, social stigma, limited availability, gentrification, and inadequate support services are the real challenges. The facility I envision is designed specifically to address these shortcomings and provide a sustainable, supportive environment for residents.

 

[Jarhyn]

The problem with public housing has never been about the concentration of residents; it has always been about poor execution. Issues like chronic underfunding, safety concerns, social stigma, limited availability, gentrification, and inadequate support services are the real challenges. The facility I envision is designed specifically to address these shortcomings and provide a sustainable, supportive environment for residents.

Another issue can, unfortunately, be things like parasite mitigation issues. Certain environments would be very difficult if, say, bedbugs came to town, and it's a problem more likely attached to the stuff of a rough sleeper.

Something would need to happen that mitigates the spread of things like bedbugs in the community, too.

Bedbugs are an important case to consider because we already know they can cause cognitive and generalized mental health issues. People with bedbug bites can end up losing time, for instance, and have brain fog, exacerbating the issues already faced within the community. For all we know, this may represent a fairly big portion of the reason why people end up chronically homeless, especially when they live in a camp.

Strategies to mitigate the spread of pathogenic elements in the communities we create need to be considered at the fore rather than as a secondary concern.

 

[Gospel]

That's once again poor execution & inadequate support services. Even what I envision would fail because of poor execution & inadequate support services and other reasons I've mentioned.

 

[TSwizzle]

California Governor Gavin Newsom was seen apparently avoiding the limelight as he was spotted clearing out a homeless encampment in Los Angeles. The Democrat, 56, stepped out on Thursday to personally tackle his state's homeless epidemic, days after he ordered California agencies to step up their efforts to combat the issue. Wearing jeans and a T-shirt, Newsom was seen in a clip shared by a FOX Los Angeles reporter throwing away junk around an encampment in Mission Hills.

Daily Mail

Newsom is such an insufferable prick.

 

[Gospel]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Angry Floof]

This seems like a good place for this.



Also: 7 ways to protect yourself against misinformation.

 

[Jarhyn]

That's once again poor execution & inadequate support services. Even what I envision would fail because of poor execution & inadequate support services and other reasons I've mentioned.

Well, unless it was properly funded and supported.

I don't think that the "bug problem" is about poor execution though so much as just the existence of a hard problem in the space of "poorly washed people living rough lives in moderately dense concentrations".

It could, again, be minimized (by conducting the services as a pipeline to get people to one end or the other); it could be mitigated in some ways by waging a silent war to keep the problem managed (such as a process to fumigate/quarantine affected areas); other measures that might be taken (such as strong detection and quarantine procedures), but this is just one of many things that need to be looked at by a qualified team.

It would cost a few million dollars, possibly even a hundred million and a few years of work to properly research what all problems would be encountered at scale and how to mitigate the risks (of the bug problem yes, but also other similar problems).

The bigger issue is the people who would want such a project to fail.

I don't know why anyone would want that to fail? I don't understand it at all why someone would want such projects to fail, but I do recognize the evidence that such must exist, since there are people who would speak loudly against trying at all (even with my own money).

 

[Gospel]

I don't think that the "bug problem" is about poor execution though so much as just the existence of a hard problem in the space of "poorly washed people living rough lives in moderately dense concentrations".

What you're talking about can be addressed by a maintenance team employed by homeless people and a pest control service that could also employ them.

Edit: And as for concerns about hygiene, each apartment would include its own bathroom with a shower. If residents aren’t using these facilities, that’s something the medical or mental health team can help address. I forgot to mention that I think the facility should be a temporary stop with a 2 to 5 year stay (dependent on their success), not a permanent residence. It won’t work for every single case, and I don't believe perfect solutions exist.

I think it would be a good idea to include a section open to the public, where individuals who either choose not to stay or have overstayed their welcome without fully utilizing the opportunity can still access bathing facilities and food. Some of whom may also be allowed to retain employment there.

 

[Gospel]

And again, this needs to be accompanied by other legislation aimed at making it easier for citizens to achieve the American Dream. It won’t succeed if housing remains unaffordable and the job market continues to struggle.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think that the "bug problem" is about poor execution though so much as just the existence of a hard problem in the space of "poorly washed people living rough lives in moderately dense concentrations".

What you're talking about can be addressed by a maintenance team employed by homeless people and a pest control service that could also employ them.

True, however it's a problem that would be nearly constant, and which could very well lead to ongoing issues unless it could be handled in a more structural/systemic way.

Creating a steady-state conflict with the bugs would not be ideal since bedbugs would start evolving against such ongoing selection pressures.

I think that largely employing the workers in such a space from the space itself is a great idea, however.