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Breakdown In Civil Order

The problem with public housing has never been about the concentration of residents; it has always been about poor execution. Issues like chronic underfunding, safety concerns, social stigma, limited availability, gentrification, and inadequate support services are the real challenges. The facility I envision is designed specifically to address these shortcomings and provide a sustainable, supportive environment for residents.
Another issue can, unfortunately, be things like parasite mitigation issues. Certain environments would be very difficult if, say, bedbugs came to town, and it's a problem more likely attached to the stuff of a rough sleeper.

Something would need to happen that mitigates the spread of things like bedbugs in the community, too.

Bedbugs are an important case to consider because we already know they can cause cognitive and generalized mental health issues. People with bedbug bites can end up losing time, for instance, and have brain fog, exacerbating the issues already faced within the community. For all we know, this may represent a fairly big portion of the reason why people end up chronically homeless, especially when they live in a camp.

Strategies to mitigate the spread of pathogenic elements in the communities we create need to be considered at the fore rather than as a secondary concern.
In general, the burden of parasites and insects is enormous, in terms of health, wealth, learning, mental acuity, etc. It's less an issue in northern climates because up north, if you hire an exterminator, survivors will not thrive in a cold environment long enough to re-invade the house when the fumes die down. It's also less an issue in more developed nations/areas.
 
The problem with public housing has never been about the concentration of residents; it has always been about poor execution. Issues like chronic underfunding, safety concerns, social stigma, limited availability, gentrification, and inadequate support services are the real challenges. The facility I envision is designed specifically to address these shortcomings and provide a sustainable, supportive environment for residents.
Another issue can, unfortunately, be things like parasite mitigation issues. Certain environments would be very difficult if, say, bedbugs came to town, and it's a problem more likely attached to the stuff of a rough sleeper.

Something would need to happen that mitigates the spread of things like bedbugs in the community, too.

Bedbugs are an important case to consider because we already know they can cause cognitive and generalized mental health issues. People with bedbug bites can end up losing time, for instance, and have brain fog, exacerbating the issues already faced within the community. For all we know, this may represent a fairly big portion of the reason why people end up chronically homeless, especially when they live in a camp.

Strategies to mitigate the spread of pathogenic elements in the communities we create need to be considered at the fore rather than as a secondary concern.
In general, the burden of parasites and insects is enormous, in terms of health, wealth, learning, mental acuity, etc. It's less an issue in northern climates because up north, if you hire an exterminator, survivors will not thrive in a cold environment long enough to re-invade the house when the fumes die down. It's also less an issue in more developed nations/areas.
Which is probably why it was, when I really focused on "problems with medium density 'middle homeless'", it was the first thing that leapt out at me.

Such sites would have high "churn" and people coming in and out with piles of stuff that's been lived with out of doors.

The facility would have to be retrofit to be resistant to such infestation, since a place like a repurposed mall would be very difficult to fumigate (at least I imagine it would), and the residents would be resistant to efforts to separate them from their stuff long enough to make sure the bugs in it wouldn't survive.

I think of all things, bugs would be the most difficult challenge -- but to be fair not much worse than the challenge created by hoarders and the various paranoid conditions that homeless people tend to experience.

What do you do when you have a person with a heaped shopping cart worth of possessions, mostly bug infested trash, when they refuse to let you so much as keep it in a quarantine freezer for even 72 hours? Or when they manage to fill a temporary apartment space floor to ceiling with newspapers?

And, I'm not saying these are reasons not to do this; after all, I've been one of the ones vocally shouting that it's worth our time to figure it out. I'm just saying there are some expensive learning experiences to be had and it won't turn out perfect on the first or even the third such site.
 
To that end, there would need to be different classes of facilities, some with more social-work embeddings and cops, and some locations that are, for better or worse, nearly lawless. Those such locations would be the sort of places that you go only knowingly, and always at your own risk.
If you want to set up a lawless commune somewhere, go for it. But for the sake of decency and communal good, please make sure its very, very far away from where law-abiding citizens live and work. Otherwise, you're just subjecting people to risk and danger for no benefit except to cater to the desires of antisocial people with no care or consideration for others.
 
Some people feel much less safe when there are police around.
Honestly, I don't understand why everyone isn't at least a little neevous when a police officer walks into a room. Even if they're friendly, they're still heavily armed danger magnets.
Many of us have never had a bad interaction with a cop. I've only ever been in situations where the cops were helpful, protective, and friendly.
 
Some people feel much less safe when there are police around.
Honestly, I don't understand why everyone isn't at least a little neevous when a police officer walks into a room. Even if they're friendly, they're still heavily armed danger magnets.
Many of us have never had a bad interaction with a cop. I've only ever been in situations where the cops were helpful, protective, and friendly.
Neither have I, but a gun is a gun, Miranda is Miranda, and I'm not stupid.
 
Some people feel much less safe when there are police around.
Honestly, I don't understand why everyone isn't at least a little neevous when a police officer walks into a room. Even if they're friendly, they're still heavily armed danger magnets.
Many of us have never had a bad interaction with a cop. I've only ever been in situations where the cops were helpful, protective, and friendly.
Lucky you.
I’ve had both experiences. I had a cop threaten me for no good reason just 4-5 years ago. I excoriated him for it, pointed out that his car was equipped with life saving equipment he wouldn’t have if not for my Company, and he got more and more sheepish. Young guy, State cop, and should have known better.
Mostly, for the last 30 years or so cops I’ve encountered have been pretty good.
 
Anway... I find the suggestion by Jarhyn that we should have an outlaw area where people can do whatever the hell they want to do (apparently except violence) with no regard for law or social contract, funded by taxpayer dollars so that the outlaws have a nice time of it while not being expected to contribute to the common good... to be a very bizarre way of thinking.
 
I think that largely employing the workers in such a space from the space itself is a great idea, however.

Yes, and that's extremely important for maintaining a sense of community. When I was experiencing homelessness, I felt more comfortable and open to people who had gone through it or were currently experiencing it, especially when they entered my space of rest. It's not that I didn't like people or was antisocial; it's just that, while many were helpful, they couldn't fully grasp the psychological impact of homelessness. It takes time and understanding to build trust, something only those who've experienced it themselves would have an easier time with. Trust is essential for a community, like the one I'm envisioning or any serving the homeless, to be truly successful.
 
Anway... I find the suggestion by Jarhyn that we should have an outlaw area where people can do whatever the hell they want to do (apparently except violence) with no regard for law or social contract, funded by taxpayer dollars so that the outlaws have a nice time of it while not being expected to contribute to the common good... to be a very bizarre way of thinking.
The except violence is pretty darn significant, don’t you think? And actually a net benefit to the rest of society who do not need to have their perfect little world of white picket fences ( btw, I actually gave a white picket fence) and clean sidewalks and access to shopping and restaurants and public transport sullied by the great unwashed, en masse or singly.

I think we need to do much, much more to stabilize housing prices and to ensure clean, safe, well maintained homes for as many people as we can get to live in them.

Not everyone will. Some people simply are not suited to living within the confines of polite society, however you define polite and society. They don’t want to or cannot. For some, it simply is a matter of preferring to spend their time in a haze of ( substance). Plenty of people behind nice white picket fences soothe themselves with ( substances) or screens or buying things or ..whatever. We think of them as productive because they live behind those nice clean fences. They do not disturb our sense of order or challenge our way of thinking or at least not too much. Somebody dies, remaining family members come to clean out the house and ten there may be plenty of judgement. Or not.

But some people struggle with various mental illnesses and do not know how to access treatment or treatment is not effective for them or is financially or geographically out of reach. Or more likely, they grew up watching family members soothe their pains with bottles and pills and they follow that pattern and too often, it swallows them up. That is a failure of society to reach people and to effectively help them deal with whatever their issues are more effectively and more safely.

Sometimes youthful experimentation takes hold and dues not let go, exacerbating rather than curing or even effectively managing mental health problems. People can and do go on for years like this, using various substances, unable to completely kick all of them and very likely accumulating not just damage to their organs because of the various substances but also accumulating pains and injuries that require pain meds in order for them to continue to work in order to have a roof over their heads. For them, there is no retirement because there is no savings. Often the work they do is itinerant meaning they never establish roots and often severely strain whatever ties they had to friends and family. After years of living in hotels or camps, they don’t necessarily know how to live in one spot anymore. They never developed the social skills of being able to ignore what your neighbor is doing that irritates you or violates your sense of order or right but wrong or hygiene or good taste or whatever the established norms are. Trust is very very low. Fear is very very high.

And there are people who are simply rule breakers. They take more than their share, leave others to clean up their messes. Or they don’t believe in monogamy or family ties or home ownership or paying rent to the man. They like living under the stars and being in encumbered by stuff people like us accumulate.

We don’t necessarily want to deal with people like that, more than we have to. That is one very good reason to ensure that people who don’t have a stable place to sleep and wash up do have such places to go , where get can get a meal and a clean bed and a shower, get some medical care. Feel like there is a place in the world where they belong.

And of course there are those who find themselves without a home because of a job loss, a divorce, serious illness or injury, medical bills, a disaster of any kind. Or the landlord’s son or niece needs a place to live or died and the family is selling the building.

I think a decent society does its utmost to ensure that everybody has access to basic amenities of life: clean water and adequate food, appropriate clothing, a decent place to shelter from the weather, and to sleep at night, access to health care, including mental health care. A sense of community. A chance at more if they want it: job training and job coaching and placement, education.

Some people fall on hard times temporarily. Some struggle all their lives. Some struggle more than necessary because they do not have access to ( safety net) that helps them recover from setbacks and hardships.
 
And there are people who are simply rule breakers. They take more than their share, leave others to clean up their messes. Or they don’t believe in monogamy or family ties or home ownership or paying rent to the man. They like living under the stars and being in encumbered by stuff people like us accumulate.

We don’t necessarily want to deal with people like that, more than we have to. That is one very good reason to ensure that people who don’t have a stable place to sleep and wash up do have such places to go , where get can get a meal and a clean bed and a shower, get some medical care. Feel like there is a place in the world where they belong.
Living in a society means abiding by some minimum of social contract for behavior and communal benefit. Expecting that some portion of people within our society should be supported by the society while being exempted from that social contract is something I don't support.

By all means, extend a helping hand to those in need. Try to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves. But don't ask society to bear the burden of those who will not contribute.
 
And there are people who are simply rule breakers. They take more than their share, leave others to clean up their messes. Or they don’t believe in monogamy or family ties or home ownership or paying rent to the man. They like living under the stars and being in encumbered by stuff people like us accumulate.

We don’t necessarily want to deal with people like that, more than we have to. That is one very good reason to ensure that people who don’t have a stable place to sleep and wash up do have such places to go , where get can get a meal and a clean bed and a shower, get some medical care. Feel like there is a place in the world where they belong.
Living in a society means abiding by some minimum of social contract for behavior and communal benefit. Expecting that some portion of people within our society should be supported by the society while being exempted from that social contract is something I don't support.

By all means, extend a helping hand to those in need. Try to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves. But don't ask society to bear the burden of those who will not contribute.
It depends upon what the social contract is. If the social contract is that we do our best to ensure the safety and well being of all members, then I think it includes those who do not want the white picket fence. Or nice apartment building.

Society DOES bear the burden of those who contribute --and those who do not. I am retired. I do not currently volunteer (I spent a few decades doing a lot of volunteer work and right now..I'm good). Am I contributing to society? Should I not collect my SS check and/or pension? Should I shuffle off to die in the woods?

I am freely admitting that I have changed my mind over the last few years about what society should and should not do for those who do not do (what we think they should) do for themselves, either because of disability/addiction/illness or...laziness. I think few people are actually that lazy. I think a lot more have given up hope of finding work they can do without being exhausted by it and that will allow them a modicum of dignity: decent housing, sufficient food and medical attention as needed. And I think there are those who simply cannot do much anymore and who really, really do get in their own way far too much. I've come to believe that we should provide a minimum basic income for people who do not earn enough funds to provide themselves with the basics. Perhaps it needs to be universal so that there is not that incessant judging of other people and whether they are really trying or really competent or what that all really means is: are they worthy.

Yeah, I think they are. Even if they make stupid decision after stupid decision after stupid decision. Today I was cleaning out a closet and let me tell you: we all make some pretty stupid decisions. In my case: my cc bill is higher than I'd like. But for some people, one stupid decision or just one that is a bit unwise or unwise under the circumstances = disaster.

Part of that change is knowing people who....will never get by on their own. I'm not going to lie and say I do not sometimes judge them harshly because I definitely have. But I've also come to realize that my judgment does not help them or me. It's just mean spirited and I indeed do not walk in their shoes or skin. Oh reason not the need as Shakespeare wrote, in an entirely different context but maybe not so entirely different.
 
The problem with public housing has never been about the concentration of residents; it has always been about poor execution. Issues like chronic underfunding, safety concerns, social stigma, limited availability, gentrification, and inadequate support services are the real challenges. The facility I envision is designed specifically to address these shortcomings and provide a sustainable, supportive environment for residents.
Another issue can, unfortunately, be things like parasite mitigation issues. Certain environments would be very difficult if, say, bedbugs came to town, and it's a problem more likely attached to the stuff of a rough sleeper.

Something would need to happen that mitigates the spread of things like bedbugs in the community, too.

Bedbugs are an important case to consider because we already know they can cause cognitive and generalized mental health issues. People with bedbug bites can end up losing time, for instance, and have brain fog, exacerbating the issues already faced within the community. For all we know, this may represent a fairly big portion of the reason why people end up chronically homeless, especially when they live in a camp.

Strategies to mitigate the spread of pathogenic elements in the communities we create need to be considered at the fore rather than as a secondary concern.
Most of the subsidized housing around here is in actually quite nice areas outside the city limits in the more affluent suburbs. If you see an apartment complex or building with the little house symbol

1723250559010.png

Kinda like this, it's a subsidized complex. The phrase on the bottom is never included and the equal sign isn't included sometimes, just the house symbol.

And from what I've heard from relatives the management of these places are quite strict about making residents follow the rules. Getting busted for lawbreaking elsewhere can also threaten your subsidized housing access.

You might be surprised about the subsidized housing in your area.
 
I think that the first part of any social contract is: don't do things to people against their consent. But, an ye harm none, do as ye wilt.

The greatest responsibility we each have is to see to those people we create without their consent.

That's really what it comes down to. We created these people, dragged them into existence, they never asked for that, and now we, what, just try to forget about them like the leftovers in the fridge just because we don't want to go through the trouble of owning our actions?

They didn't sign a contract "I acknowledge that I get to exist, only if I 'contribute'," they got created as someone who always was going to be the person they are. All of society is culpable for that. Thankfully, such people who refuse to contribute are few and far between.

I would as soon give them a pool of enough (substance) to drown themselves in it if they want to, and every opportunity to do something different with their lives, to help people find something that brings them joy in their continued existence... But some people will choose to drown themselves, and to me that's OK.

To me, the social contract starts at... Not strong-arming people into "social contracts" that lock them into a lifetime of work in a system they never asked to be forced into, generally at the bottom of a hierarchy they never got a choice of their starting point in, or filling all the world with the paradigm of "white picket fence society" and never creating or tolerating or enabling a space for a different structure of "social contract" in the first place.

And beyond that, it goes to the "prestige" of a society to put on display that their society produces few such people, and supports them well when they do. It says "look at how prosperous we are, how educated we are, how functional our social contract is that everyone wants to fulfill its terms happily and free of existential fear."

I want to live and contribute to a society like that! When faced with the society I have, though, I just find myself instead wanting to change the social contract as much as I can!

Frankly my biggest complaint is that in the expectation that I fulfill some social contract, it gets lost in the fine print that someone born to a higher station than me gets to own everything I create, and that I'll never really be the owner of anything I make or do*.

Why should anyone be expected to do anything for a society where they are merely the functionary to someone else's wealth? Where is the point of such a social order?

Still, we need to build those ladders out and up, and make spaces for those who will not climb them, and it starts with recognizing that the current social contract kinda sucks.

The problem with public housing has never been about the concentration of residents; it has always been about poor execution. Issues like chronic underfunding, safety concerns, social stigma, limited availability, gentrification, and inadequate support services are the real challenges. The facility I envision is designed specifically to address these shortcomings and provide a sustainable, supportive environment for residents.
Another issue can, unfortunately, be things like parasite mitigation issues. Certain environments would be very difficult if, say, bedbugs came to town, and it's a problem more likely attached to the stuff of a rough sleeper.

Something would need to happen that mitigates the spread of things like bedbugs in the community, too.

Bedbugs are an important case to consider because we already know they can cause cognitive and generalized mental health issues. People with bedbug bites can end up losing time, for instance, and have brain fog, exacerbating the issues already faced within the community. For all we know, this may represent a fairly big portion of the reason why people end up chronically homeless, especially when they live in a camp.

Strategies to mitigate the spread of pathogenic elements in the communities we create need to be considered at the fore rather than as a secondary concern.
Most of the subsidized housing around here is in actually quite nice areas outside the city limits in the more affluent suburbs. If you see an apartment complex or building with the little house symbol

View attachment 47140

Kinda like this, it's a subsidized complex. The phrase on the bottom is never included and the equal sign isn't included sometimes, just the house symbol.

And from what I've heard from relatives the management of these places are quite strict about making residents follow the rules. Getting busted for lawbreaking elsewhere can also threaten your subsidized housing access.

You might be surprised about the subsidized housing in your area.
I'm familiar with this. I lived in an apartment complex with subsidized housing before my divorce from my first spouse. That's actually where I came to understand the special threat bugs pose to a medium density living situation.

My birth mother is in fact in subsidized housing, as well.

I'm more talking about the sorts of places that my birth mother was living BEFORE she got on the anti-schitz* meds, though bugs are still a problem even in normal medium density housing.

*Somehow, probably not actually true for me in particular... But until the last few years, this was my existence and I'm not going to forget my experience of it just because I lucked out and ended up in a position to share an inheritance.
 
It could, again, be minimized (by conducting the services as a pipeline to get people to one end or the other); it could be mitigated in some ways by waging a silent war to keep the problem managed (such as a process to fumigate/quarantine affected areas); other measures that might be taken (such as strong detection and quarantine procedures), but this is just one of many things that need to be looked at by a qualified team.
You need active cooperation everyone involved to combat bedbugs.
 
I don't think that the "bug problem" is about poor execution though so much as just the existence of a hard problem in the space of "poorly washed people living rough lives in moderately dense concentrations".

What you're talking about can be addressed by a maintenance team employed by homeless people and a pest control service that could also employ them.

Edit: And as for concerns about hygiene, each apartment would include its own bathroom with a shower. If residents aren’t using these facilities, that’s something the medical or mental health team can help address. I forgot to mention that I think the facility should be a temporary stop with a 2 to 5 year stay (dependent on their success), not a permanent residence. It won’t work for every single case, and I don't believe perfect solutions exist.
The problem is that you can't force mental health treatment. It doesn't work. For some patients there are drug regimes that work but the ones you find on the streets are ones who dislike the side effects enough that they don't take them if not forced to.
 
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