Breakdown In Civil Order

[thebeave]

Car dealership tried to steal $959 from me yesterday with a fraudulent repair on top of the fake fuel induction service they pushed. Why isn't there any hand-wringing over the common fraud business model of car dealership service departments and some other service industries like lawn pest management and such (I have some good stories about Save-A-Tree up in New Jersey).

I bet if you started a thread on that topic, you'd get plenty of people to join in your complaints. But bitching that nobody is complaining about some other unrelated topic in this thread is... well... irrational.

So now would not be a good time to bring up my new toaster that only toasts one side of the bread?

1st world problem mate.
There is a thread somewhere about such things.

I forget. Is "whoosh" spelled with six "o"'s or seven?

 

[Jarhyn]

There is so much whooshing going on, as it's all a conversation about the fact that the GOP and their supporters are trying to bury the fact that the greatest breakdown in civil order comes from letting people grift without consequences, and that nobody seems to be talking about it.

 

[Toni]

The question I have is that, if there were a better place than the middle of the sidewalk to camp, could they be asked to camp there instead? I think they could.

Ahem...

An area that is not frequently used by the community. A baseball or football field out of season, publicly owned fields that aren't generally used for hiking/camping/playgrounds, empty lots on the outskirts of the city that don't impede travel or business. In my neck of the woods, we had a lot of hotels/motels go out of business during the pandemic, as well as several strip malls and department stores that closed. A large number of those have been repurposed to provide housing and shelter for the homeless. Seems like a pretty good idea to me.

How do playgrounds and fielda work, unless they have a lot of toilets? Definitely no showers.

Not to mention, we do need playgrounds and open areas, fields in order to make a community healthy.

 

[Elixir]

The question I have is that, if there were a better place than the middle of the sidewalk to camp, could they be asked to camp there instead? I think they could.

Ahem...

An area that is not frequently used by the community. A baseball or football field out of season, publicly owned fields that aren't generally used for hiking/camping/playgrounds, empty lots on the outskirts of the city that don't impede travel or business. In my neck of the woods, we had a lot of hotels/motels go out of business during the pandemic, as well as several strip malls and department stores that closed. A large number of those have been repurposed to provide housing and shelter for the homeless. Seems like a pretty good idea to me.

How do playgrounds and fielda work, unless they have a lot of toilets? Definitely no showers.

Not to mention, we do need playgrounds and open areas, fields in order to make a community healthy.

Walking distance to food is critical. Ask how I know.

 

[Jarhyn]

The question I have is that, if there were a better place than the middle of the sidewalk to camp, could they be asked to camp there instead? I think they could.

Ahem...

An area that is not frequently used by the community. A baseball or football field out of season, publicly owned fields that aren't generally used for hiking/camping/playgrounds, empty lots on the outskirts of the city that don't impede travel or business. In my neck of the woods, we had a lot of hotels/motels go out of business during the pandemic, as well as several strip malls and department stores that closed. A large number of those have been repurposed to provide housing and shelter for the homeless. Seems like a pretty good idea to me.

How do playgrounds and fielda work, unless they have a lot of toilets? Definitely no showers.

Not to mention, we do need playgrounds and open areas, fields in order to make a community healthy.

Walking distance to food is critical. Ask how I know.

Not to mention the fact that it has to be a dedicated space, not just a momentarily available one. It's fine if we expect people living somewhere to move across a hall once every few months, but as soon as you are booting them across town every three months, things start to get hairy.

 

[Gospel]

I appreciated Emily's earlier mention of shopping malls. Given that these malls are declining nationwide, repurposing them into apartments with added facilities like clinics, police stations, and mental health centers could benefit homeless communities. Granted it's funded well and staffed with the right people.

Edit: There's also plenty of space in the parking lots for fundraisers and local community events organized by churches and other groups.
Edit 2: Covering the entire roof in solar panels might help pay for the facility by selling to excess power to the grid granted power consumption is well managed.

Might even be able to give many of the homeless people there jobs operating and maintaining the facility.

 

[Toni]

I appreciated Emily's earlier mention of shopping malls. Given that these malls are declining nationwide, repurposing them into apartments with added facilities like clinics, police stations, and mental health centers could benefit homeless communities. Granted it's funded well and staffed with the right people.

Edit: There's also plenty of space in the parking lots for fundraisers and local community events organized by churches and other groups.
Edit 2: Covering the entire roof in solar panels might help pay for the facility by selling to excess power to the grid granted power consumption is well managed.

Might even be able to give many of the homeless people there jobs operating and maintaining the facility.

Great idea but I want to ask about including police substations in such re-purposed malls. Do you think it might keep some people who could benefit from making use of such shelters?

 

[Jarhyn]

I appreciated Emily's earlier mention of shopping malls. Given that these malls are declining nationwide, repurposing them into apartments with added facilities like clinics, police stations, and mental health centers could benefit homeless communities. Granted it's funded well and staffed with the right people.

Edit: There's also plenty of space in the parking lots for fundraisers and local community events organized by churches and other groups.
Edit 2: Covering the entire roof in solar panels might help pay for the facility by selling to excess power to the grid granted power consumption is well managed.

Might even be able to give many of the homeless people there jobs operating and maintaining the facility.

Great idea but I want to ask about including police substations in such re-purposed malls. Do you think it might keep some people who could benefit from making use of such shelters?

Yeah, I would think this would be a problem for the people living there.

There would ideally need to be some sort of deputized or legally empowered conflict resolution mechanism available close to hand either way, however.

 

[Gospel]

I appreciated Emily's earlier mention of shopping malls. Given that these malls are declining nationwide, repurposing them into apartments with added facilities like clinics, police stations, and mental health centers could benefit homeless communities. Granted it's funded well and staffed with the right people.

Edit: There's also plenty of space in the parking lots for fundraisers and local community events organized by churches and other groups.
Edit 2: Covering the entire roof in solar panels might help pay for the facility by selling to excess power to the grid granted power consumption is well managed.

Might even be able to give many of the homeless people there jobs operating and maintaining the facility.

Great idea but I want to ask about including police substations in such re-purposed malls. Do you think it might keep some people who could benefit from making use of such shelters?

Well the idea in my mind is that the primary goal of police presence is to deter individuals with malicious intent and ensure a safe space for the community. Those who engage in unlawful activities will face legal consequences, while those seeking to improve their lives will find support and rehabilitation services within the facility. In fact it would probably be more fluid for the mental health facility and the justice system to work together for rehabilitation with such a close relationship. Not every homeless person will find the service appealing or lawfully qualify for it, but the facility will cater to those who do and see its value, especially the aspect of earning wages while not having to pay for room and board. For individuals with severe issues, we need to enhance other services, such as mental health care and how those individuals are treated by the justice system, to better support those citizens. For those who turn to crime, the appropriate place for them is jail.

As for drug use, it's unrealistic to expect solutions to eliminate it entirely. The police are responsible for upholding the law, while rehabilitation services should remain voluntary. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with individuals to decide if they want to be part of the community and make positive changes. Forcing people to change is not feasible.

I believe what I'm envisioning here would be most effective for those who have recently become homeless, giving them an opportunity to regain stability before they slip further from being functional and independent citizens. Over time, it could lead to a decrease in homelessness.

Edit: A decrease in homelessness granted all 50 states recognize that we are "one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," and implement some god damn legislation that benefits the entire country rather than a social class or party affiliate.

 

[Jarhyn]

Not every homeless person will find the service appealing or lawfully qualify for it

One issue here is that, regardless of the intent of the criminal justice program, many people at such locations would have rather checkered pasts, often "unrecoverably" so.

These folks would want nothing to do with any location that has embedded fuzz.

To that end, there would need to be different classes of facilities, some with more social-work embeddings and cops, and some locations that are, for better or worse, nearly lawless. Those such locations would be the sort of places that you go only knowingly, and always at your own risk.

Strangely, I think society needs such places, though, at least within reason. Better to know where it is and be able to keep an eye on it, even if from outside.

 

[Elixir]

Strangely, I think society needs such places, though, at least within reason.

Like say, Indian reservations?

 

[Gospel]

One issue here is that, regardless of the intent of the criminal justice program, many people at such locations would have rather checkered pasts, often "unrecoverably" so.

In the three hoods I grew up, there was a common attitude about keeping crime away from home. The rule was simple: what you do on the streets stays on the streets. Even if someone engaged in criminal activities or made poor choices, they knew not to get caught doing it where they rested their head, earned their money, and washed their ass. As long as they didn't bring trouble to home or work and managed to avoid getting caught elsewhere, they could maintain a sense of normalcy at home.

Edit: What I mean by this is that the shelter could still be beneficial for them, and being surrounded by positive influences might encourage them to make better choices.

 

[Toni]

One issue here is that, regardless of the intent of the criminal justice program, many people at such locations would have rather checkered pasts, often "unrecoverably" so.

In the three hoods I grew up, there was a common attitude about keeping crime away from home. The rule was simple: what you do on the streets stays on the streets. Even if someone engaged in criminal activities or made poor choices, they knew not to get caught doing it where they rested their head, earned their money, and washed their ass. As long as they didn't bring trouble to home or work and managed to avoid getting caught elsewhere, they could maintain a sense of normalcy at home.

Edit: What I mean by this is that the shelter could still be beneficial for them, and being surrounded by positive influences might encourage them to make better choices.

I get that. But I also understand Jahryn’s points. There are people who simply will avoid anyplace with a police presence. Not necessarily law breakers or not beyond personal drug use.

I might not have shared Jahryn’s pov 10 years ago but I definitely get it. It is an unfortunate fact that police officers are not always well trained, are often heavily armed and are not always motivated by a desire to serve and protect the people. Some people feel much less safe when there are police around.

 

[Shadowy Man]

There is so much whooshing going on, as it's all a conversation about the fact that the GOP and their supporters are trying to bury the fact that the greatest breakdown in civil order comes from letting people grift without consequences, and that nobody seems to be talking about it.

Because it’s clearly a symbiotic relationship between grifter and griftee, and neither wants it to end.

 

[Gospel]

The old-fashioned square mall here is on the brink of closure, if not already defunct and on life support. With approximately 1 million square feet, it has the potential to be converted into about 800 apartments, complete with convenience stores, a sub police station, a medical facility, and even its own small fire department to serve the surrounding area.

 

[Gospel]

I get that. But I also understand Jahryn’s points. There are people who simply will avoid anyplace with a police presence.

No reason to not service the people who won't.

 

[Politesse]

Some people feel much less safe when there are police around.

Honestly, I don't understand why everyone isn't at least a little neevous when a police officer walks into a room. Even if they're friendly, they're still heavily armed danger magnets.

 

[Jarhyn]

One issue here is that, regardless of the intent of the criminal justice program, many people at such locations would have rather checkered pasts, often "unrecoverably" so.

In the three hoods I grew up, there was a common attitude about keeping crime away from home. The rule was simple: what you do on the streets stays on the streets. Even if someone engaged in criminal activities or made poor choices, they knew not to get caught doing it where they rested their head, earned their money, and washed their ass. As long as they didn't bring trouble to home or work and managed to avoid getting caught elsewhere, they could maintain a sense of normalcy at home.

Edit: What I mean by this is that the shelter could still be beneficial for them, and being surrounded by positive influences might encourage them to make better choices.

I get that. But I also understand Jahryn’s points. There are people who simply will avoid anyplace with a police presence. Not necessarily law breakers or not beyond personal drug use.

I might not have shared Jahryn’s pov 10 years ago but I definitely get it. It is an unfortunate fact that police officers are not always well trained, are often heavily armed and are not always motivated by a desire to serve and protect the people. Some people feel much less safe when there are police around.

Hell, I myself feel unsafe when there are police around, generally.

The only time this has ever been untrue has been immediately after some manner of threatening crime has occurred in my vicinity, and only to the extent that the interaction was absolutely necessary for whatever reason.

I certainly don't feel safer with unknown people from outside my community armed with guns patrolling around my community.

This might have a lot to do with the fact that I am, myself, on the very edge of polite society, and the fact that I would be willing to bet that the least observant 70% of folks who see me would probably think I'm homeless myself (given my Wizard Chic look).

Ideally, we would minimize utilization of such "badlands" sort of places? To me it would operate much like the appendix does: it's a place for the weird to hide; it's a refuge for all it would need occasional disinfection.

 

[Toni]

I get that. But I also understand Jahryn’s points. There are people who simply will avoid anyplace with a police presence.

No reason to not service the people who won't.

That is true. But having a police presence in effect denies services to those who feel unsafe around police.

I don't think that there is any one size fits all type of shelter for those who do not have homes. Some people end up without shelter because of bad behavior or law breaking and for others, it is merely a matter of bad luck: too many bad turns, maybe only one bad turn of luck can remove what little security they have. I was once close to that myself, years ago.

Some spaces need to be able to house families, some need to house single people, people with dogs or cats, people with mental health issues, other health issues, disabilities, addictions, etc. Different levels of crisis management are needed and different types. Job training, secure place to sleep, eat, shower, receive mail. Maybe even receive visitors. Ideally most such shelters would really be small communities that include health care, job training, therapy, childcare, various types of education, mostly geared towards the practical but also, don't we all need a bit of art and music in our lives? The space to be able to create and share? Social workers, mental health and addiction counselors on site as close to 24/7 as possible. Police only where necessary.

 

[Jarhyn]

I get that. But I also understand Jahryn’s points. There are people who simply will avoid anyplace with a police presence.

No reason to not service the people who won't.

That is true. But having a police presence in effect denies services to those who feel unsafe around police.

I don't think that there is any one size fits all type of shelter for those who do not have homes. Some people end up without shelter because of bad behavior or law breaking and for others, it is merely a matter of bad luck: too many bad turns, maybe only one bad turn of luck can remove what little security they have. I was once close to that myself, years ago.

Some spaces need to be able to house families, some need to house single people, people with dogs or cats, people with mental health issues, other health issues, disabilities, addictions, etc. Different levels of crisis management are needed and different types. Job training, secure place to sleep, eat, shower, receive mail. Maybe even receive visitors. Ideally most such shelters would really be small communities that include health care, job training, therapy, childcare, various types of education, mostly geared towards the practical but also, don't we all need a bit of art and music in our lives? The space to be able to create and share? Social workers, mental health and addiction counselors on site as close to 24/7 as possible. Police only where necessary.

To me the answer is about having a myriad of options, especially in cities or large towns: some places where it is as Gospel describes taking over an old mall as a community shelter with full services and police and mental health facilities and injection sites and the like focused on "middle homeless"; highrises or higher density groups of studio units with amenities and job placement assistance for "sub-homed", and something more badlands concrete structures with high durability pipes, sewage grinders, injection sites, a nearby methadone faucet, and lower "social presence" for the "low homeless".

Ideally, there would be "pipelines" running both ways directing people to the sort of facilities that they would work best in.

And for the perennial troublemakers, secure mental health facilities.