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Charlie Kirk shot at (shot?) in Utah

Violence isn't a magic button
No more than punishment and praise is a magic button. You can't after all just wantonly punish and praise someone randomly and hope the outcom you want.

But much like the situation where you have screws and something to fasten down with them, while neither the screws and the screwdriver are magic, while wiggling them at the problem does nothing, the solution itself still requires application of those tools, and in the proper way.

No change happens, no change is possible, when there is a violent regime and that violent bully is not opposed with every measure of promised violence.

It is not a magic button... But it is definitely a necessary button have on your table, and a necessary tool to be able to use.

Your peace at all costs will lead you to the peace of the grave.
Who said peace at all costs?
I will not share that peace. Nobody should. So it is the peace of the violent and wild and free, or it is the peace of the grave.
I'm thinking that'd be a false dichotomy.
And bear in mind I am not the one threatening you with your peace of the grave, that's the Trumpists.
I think anyone who steps up to senseless violence is an enemy of the state, period. I don't play teams.

You haven't put any sense to proclaimed violence..
It is laughable that you will watch someone who murders others who are powerless and begging for their lives, and think that when YOU ask nicely, YOU will be spared.
WTF are you going on about?
Wow you are just bending over yourself to defend your "nonviolent" capitulation.

I am saying that IF you want your protests to be effective, you have to point loudly and clearly to "Plan B", and yes, plan B involves violence.

That violence is careful, but you are the one claiming that anyone endorsing it is endorsing "magic button wave the violence around" solutions rather than protest signs in one hand and rifles in the other.

If you wave one hand full of signs and the other empty of rifles, no change will happen.
 
Why are you listening to her?
She responds to (freaks out about) my posts. Why does anyone on a message board listen to anyone else? She’s a bright person who honestly shares the feelings she wears in her sleeve AFAIK. Not much more can be asked, really.
I'm really not so certain about that anymore.
It’s not reasonable in this medium to require certainty of sincerity imnsho. But yeah, my impression has not really improved. It’s the certainty of insincerity that serves as a bar for me. I see a lot of people respond to barbos’ caricature, and as an entertainment medium it’s not terrible. This software ain’t fancy but it lets one see ignored posts when a response to it piques curiosity.
Allies didn't use "violence" to win WWII.
That will be news to the descendents of people who lived in Dresden or Nagasaki.
You don't need to be daft here. My words came with a context which you snipped out.
??? A plan won the war? Plans don’t carry themselves out. Few of them succeed and that one came at terrible cost.
Or I still misunderstand?
really there is no war to be fought.
That will not deter the heroes who violently put down the “invasion from within”.
That hasn't started... yet.

The footage from immigration courts (and others) says otherwise. It will escalate just insidiously enough to keep the military in line while they await deployment in the war against “the enemy from within”.
Nip it in the bud, or wait for true shithole dictatorship to take hold.
I’m too young to want to expire before this nonsense is thrown out with the trash.
 
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As I noted in a previous post, the Allies didn't use "violence" to win WWII.
I am pretty sure they did.
There was a plan.
And the plan was "Talking hasn't worked. Let's use violence".
And jebus, let's get fucking real here. We aren't at war... yet.
As The US Government said in 1940.
And really there is no war to be fought.
Also the US Government, until December 6, 1941
If they try to seize control, the question will be are they successful.
They were. In Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Italy, The Sudetenland, the balance of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark... And all the while, the US were saying "...really there is no war to be fought".

As Churchill observed, we can always rely on the USA to do the right thing. After they have tried everything else.
 
Non-violence works when you are a minority because people look down on violent uprisings by minorities. Violent uprisings by minorities aren't very persuasive to independents or established privileged powers. For example, look at how Haiti has been treated over history versus how the US has been treated or France. America was FOUNDED on violent revolution against authoritarianism. Revolution by white people. It is celebrated daily in national anthems, flag-waving, and education. Don't forget that the loyalists were also purged and a lot of that was also violent. Like people being tarred and feathered. Many of those people fled to northeast Canada. White people running around with guns saying the second amendment protects their rights--okay. Black Panthers running around with guns and copies of the Constitution--terrorists. At least to aforementioned people. When President Obama was President, remember the thugs running around with guns to townhall meetings saying, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Where are all those people now, except supporting the Dictator and his agenda, but to be open, there is something very legitimate about the words.

Which brings me to the point... meeting violence with violence isn't wrong and stopping an authoritarian isn't wrong either, but we've been Othered. We've all been made out to be The Other, whether we're atheist, LGBTQ, deranged leftists, or other minorities. So even though violence in the response not wrong, ultimately it wouldn't be effective and I think it would be playing right into Hair Furor's hands. He's been using assassination attempts and things like that to consolidate his power faster. That's the reason he is starting a war with antifa. He wants violent responses he can propagandize.

So honestly, I think the most effective thing right now is call yourselves the Sons and Daughters of Liberty. Put on a parade with drums and revolutionary era garb. Hold banners like "Down with Tyranny!" and "No Kings Day!" and "Democracy" But be non-violent. Wave American flags. March right through when they are being violent, let them take you down but hold up the flag.

That's really what non-violence is about. It's about teaching the violent assaulters (and everyone else watching) that they are wrong. And that does involve violence, just by them.
 
Non-violence works when you are a minority because people look down on violent uprisings by minorities. Violent uprisings by minorities aren't very persuasive to independents or established privileged powers. For example, look at how Haiti has been treated over history versus how the US has been treated or France. America was FOUNDED on violent revolution against authoritarianism. Revolution by white people. It is celebrated daily in national anthems, flag-waving, and education. Don't forget that the loyalists were also purged and a lot of that was also violent. Like people being tarred and feathered. Many of those people fled to northeast Canada. White people running around with guns saying the second amendment protects their rights--okay. Black Panthers running around with guns and copies of the Constitution--terrorists. At least to aforementioned people. When President Obama was President, remember the thugs running around with guns to townhall meetings saying, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Where are all those people now, except supporting the Dictator and his agenda, but to be open, there is something very legitimate about the words.

Which brings me to the point... meeting violence with violence isn't wrong and stopping an authoritarian isn't wrong either, but we've been Othered. We've all been made out to be The Other, whether we're atheist, LGBTQ, deranged leftists, or other minorities. So even though violence in the response not wrong, ultimately it wouldn't be effective and I think it would be playing right into Hair Furor's hands. He's been using assassination attempts and things like that to consolidate his power faster. That's the reason he is starting a war with antifa. He wants violent responses he can propagandize.

So honestly, I think the most effective thing right now is call yourselves the Sons and Daughters of Liberty. Put on a parade with drums and revolutionary era garb. Hold banners like "Down with Tyranny!" and "No Kings Day!" and "Democracy" But be non-violent. Wave American flags. March right through when they are being violent, let them take you down but hold up the flag.

That's really what non-violence is about. It's about teaching the violent assaulters (and everyone else watching) that they are wrong. And that does involve violence, just by them.
The problem here is that there needs to be something in answer.

And the fact is that trans people remember that stonewall was a riot, and most of the younger generation saw this threat coming.

Lots of gay and trans folks are armed, and understand the core of what was only heard as rhetoric by the 2a crowd.

This war will either be waged against the American people in the form of camps, or bloody stands, and they will focus on justifying the one with the other, and neither should be capitulated to.

The issue is that none of the truth of the peacefulness of the moment will be televised, put on the cable, or seen on the twitter or the YouTube or the tiktok...

It just won't be seen.

If America thinks that Minneapolis is in ruins, they will think the things that allow it to be put to ruin.

I will watch all of this happen and document all of it, what happens in Minneapolis, here, because RayJ is amazing and the US authorities cannot disappear this site, though they could end my access to it.

My point is that it doesn't matter anymore what you think should be done; it only works your way when it's seen, and the power of the press is gone.

My city is about to be fucking occupied by ICE.

Do you understand this?

They are going to destroy the beautiful downtown streets with heavy vehicles.

They are going to ruin the businesses of the downtown area.

They are going to fuck up our traffic with checkpoints.

Do you not understand this?

And the result will be what is televised, as if it was always that way.

And I knew this was going to happen some time early LAST year, and expected to happen some time earlier than it has, thank fuck.

So what the fuck do you want?

Capitulation?
 
I don't think this is hyperbolic. I hated Bush/Cheney but I didn't fear for my civil liberties.
You should have! They were major contributors to the decline of our democratic safeguards, and that was no accident.
Debby DUBBYA was just an idiot and global disgrace who bungled what may have been the greatest opportunity that will ever exist to truly reduce the use of fossil fuels (and subsequently cut ties with the Saudis). I have a whole thing about that, but I won't bore anyone with it. Anyway, I've always seen his bullshit being much more about overseas matters, e.g. grabbing Iraq for its oil reserves (and also bungling Afghanistan).

You can make a timeline of Bush Jr. to the tea party to gaslighting and then to Trump, but we had 8 years of Obama to recover our national dignity and standing around the world. I won't go into the filthy sewer rat nakedly threatening our civil liberties because everyone else is doing that already.
 
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This past weekend an ex of mine called me. She's been doxxed from posts she made on FB regarding Kirk being a monstrous asshole. Death threats followed, her home address was publicly posted, and she's been put on leave from her job. She's almost certainly going to end up fired. There is no practical legal remedy for her. That made her furious with me, but that's why she's an ex.

Anyway, maybe someone can enlighten me. People are being concretely and measurably harmed for their speech by hundreds of thousands of private citizens on behalf of the government.

Is this a new thing?

There have usually been paramilitary organizations to do the dirty work, but private citizens doing the dirty work without direction or compensation from the government seems really strange.

ICE has become and will continue to grow as a paramilitary outfit, but again, that's a government organization.

Teach me some history.

Yes there was a time when the government used local snitches to turn in their neighbors for not being the right type of "patriotic". I suggest watching:


President Woodrow Wilson steered the nation through years of neutrality, only to reluctantly lead America into the bloodiest conflict the world had ever seen, thereby transforming the United States into a dominant player on the international stage; and how the ardent patriotism and determination to support America’s crusade for liberty abroad led to one of the most oppressive crackdowns on civil liberties at home in U.S. history.

You'll end up despising Woodrow Wilson.

I just rewatched this documentary about Woodrow Wilson during WWI. It's a chilling story of how racism and the destruction of civil liberties in the USA is so easy. Woodrow Wilson and Trump have some things in common. They violently suppress civil liberties and racial equality in the USA. They both violently hated dissent and they both hated people of color.

They diverge that Wilson wanted democracy for the world. Trump doesn't care.

I can only hope that Trump's influence dies when he's out of office the way Wilson's influence died when the war was over.

This documentary is well worth watching. It's a lot about WWI but a lot about Wilson's fortunately temporary destruction of civil liberties.

Most scumbags have some redeeming qualities. Wilson had some. Trump has none.

 
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Non-violence works when you are a minority because people look down on violent uprisings by minorities. Violent uprisings by minorities aren't very persuasive to independents or established privileged powers. For example, look at how Haiti has been treated over history versus how the US has been treated or France. America was FOUNDED on violent revolution against authoritarianism. Revolution by white people. It is celebrated daily in national anthems, flag-waving, and education. Don't forget that the loyalists were also purged and a lot of that was also violent. Like people being tarred and feathered. Many of those people fled to northeast Canada. White people running around with guns saying the second amendment protects their rights--okay. Black Panthers running around with guns and copies of the Constitution--terrorists. At least to aforementioned people. When President Obama was President, remember the thugs running around with guns to townhall meetings saying, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Where are all those people now, except supporting the Dictator and his agenda, but to be open, there is something very legitimate about the words.

Which brings me to the point... meeting violence with violence isn't wrong and stopping an authoritarian isn't wrong either, but we've been Othered. We've all been made out to be The Other, whether we're atheist, LGBTQ, deranged leftists, or other minorities. So even though violence in the response not wrong, ultimately it wouldn't be effective and I think it would be playing right into Hair Furor's hands. He's been using assassination attempts and things like that to consolidate his power faster. That's the reason he is starting a war with antifa. He wants violent responses he can propagandize.

So honestly, I think the most effective thing right now is call yourselves the Sons and Daughters of Liberty. Put on a parade with drums and revolutionary era garb. Hold banners like "Down with Tyranny!" and "No Kings Day!" and "Democracy" But be non-violent. Wave American flags. March right through when they are being violent, let them take you down but hold up the flag.

That's really what non-violence is about. It's about teaching the violent assaulters (and everyone else watching) that they are wrong. And that does involve violence, just by them.
The problem here is that there needs to be something in answer.

And the fact is that trans people remember that stonewall was a riot, and most of the younger generation saw this threat coming.

Lots of gay and trans folks are armed, and understand the core of what was only heard as rhetoric by the 2a crowd.

This war will either be waged against the American people in the form of camps, or bloody stands, and they will focus on justifying the one with the other, and neither should be capitulated to.

The issue is that none of the truth of the peacefulness of the moment will be televised, put on the cable, or seen on the twitter or the YouTube or the tiktok...

It just won't be seen.

If America thinks that Minneapolis is in ruins, they will think the things that allow it to be put to ruin.

I will watch all of this happen and document all of it, what happens in Minneapolis, here, because RayJ is amazing and the US authorities cannot disappear this site, though they could end my access to it.

My point is that it doesn't matter anymore what you think should be done; it only works your way when it's seen, and the power of the press is gone.

My city is about to be fucking occupied by ICE.

Do you understand this?

They are going to destroy the beautiful downtown streets with heavy vehicles.

They are going to ruin the businesses of the downtown area.

They are going to fuck up our traffic with checkpoints.

Do you not understand this?

And the result will be what is televised, as if it was always that way.

And I knew this was going to happen some time early LAST year, and expected to happen some time earlier than it has, thank fuck.

So what the fuck do you want?

Capitulation?
Hints of Gil Scott-Heron?

 
Debby DUBBYA was just an idiot and global disgrace who bungled what may have been the greatest opportunity that will ever exist to truly reduce the use of fossil fuels (and subsequently cut ties with the Saudis). I have a whole thing about that, but I won't bore anyone with it. Anyway, I've always seen his bullshit being much more about overseas matters, e.g. grabbing Iraq for its oil reserves (and also bungling Afghanistan).
Then you did exactly what you were supposed to do, and focused on his "foreign policy" rather than what he (and more importantly, his handlers) were doing in Washington.
 
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