Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[TomC]

At the permanence of the suffering.

Who decides that?
How much suffering? Who decides how much is too much?
There are no simple, one size fits all, answers to the real questions here.

At least, not to me. YMMV
Tom

 

[abaddon]

Who decides that?
How much suffering? Who decides how much is too much?
There are no simple, one size fits all, answers to the real questions here.

At least, not to me. YMMV

Can you give an example scenario that will show the "one size fits all" answer is too simple?

The details would have to be worked out, and that'd involve a little complexity, but once worked out then it could be a fairly simple formula. Like, you must be confronting a physically and/or psychologically agonizing dying experience or you don't qualify for assisted suicide.

The heartbroken teenager is an example of how simple the issue is, because no one but a psychopath could be convinced to help her to die.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

While I understand the hardship and futility of knowing that a friend or family member is in such a terrible situation, one question I've never received an answer to is this one: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die?

Correct. It is my body, and therefore, the right to live or die is mine.

I don't know where you live, but here in the USA at least there is no such right.

And how is the government going to stop me from putting a 45ACP projectile in my own head, if I chose to do so?

Being able to do something doesn't make it a right.

Again, if you're at all serious, then please get help

Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Anybody, if they so choose.

I'm not sure if I believe you here. I've yet to hear anybody seriously advocating the right to die for just anybody. Only the infirm are to be killed.

I believe that every human should be free to make decisions regarding whether they wish to continue to live, and the state has no business making this decision illegal. No matter what the circumstances.

Sure, we should all be able to make some decisions regarding our wishes to live or die. What we cannot justly do, in my opinion, is to do something to ourselves that will harm others. In most cases a suicide not only harms its immediate victim but many other people as well.

By the way, suicide isn't illegal in the US I suppose because a dead person cannot meaningfully be prosecuted for a crime. Nevertheless, contrary to what you say the state does have an obligation to control your behavior to ensure that that behavior cannot harm society in some way. And like it or not, suicide is harmful to society, a fact some people don't seem to be aware of.

I am NOT advocating for healthy people to kill themselves en masse, as you seem to be implying.

I'm not implying that at all. I am asking if people discriminate between the wanted and the unwanted by giving the red light to dying for the wanted and the green light to dying for the unwanted. It seems obvious that the answer for most people is yes.

So if, say, a young, handsome, and strong man is despondent over a divorce and cannot bear to live, we should do what we can to help him to live on. Suicide is out of the question; he's too good to let go of.

Why is it out of the question?

I just said that "he's too good to let go of."

There is no value judgement in my position. Every person should have the right to end their own life if they so desire, without the state passing laws to make it illegal, with no conditions attached. My body, my decision. It has nothing to do with people being "valuable" to society using some arbitrary metric.

If you're like most people, then what you've posted here isn't true. The fact is that almost everybody values some people and not others, and so we treat the valued well and the unvalued not so well.

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

You are not making sense. Allowing people to voluntarily end their own lives that they no longer wish to live is not the same thing as getting rid of people we do not value.

Sometimes people are goaded into committing suicide. Their "voluntarily" deciding to take their own lives might actually result from being pressured to do so. If they no longer wish to live, then it is often a result of abuse.

And it's only fair to warn you that if you encourage a person to commit suicide, then you can do prison time for manslaughter.

I am not advocating for people to be encouraged to commit suicide. Your argument is a strawman.

I didn't say you are advocating encouraging people to commit suicide, but your kind of rhetoric can have that effect. I'm just warning you that if you encourage a person to commit suicide, then you can do prison time for manslaughter.

 

[Elixir]

your kind of rhetoric can have that effect.

Fact not in evidence.
Life can cause people to want to off themselves. Get rid of it?

A milligram of self-worth does more to make people want to live, than does a ton of you or me “valuing” their lives. If you want someone to live, TELL THEM. Boost their self with if you can. At least you can make them feel guilty if they end themselves.

 

[TomC]

Can you give an example scenario that will show the "one size fits all" answer is too simple?

Oh yes.
Yes I could.

We could start with the examples I know about from the decade or so I spent a lot of time doing volunteer stuff with HIV patients and gay people, mostly men.

Oh yeah. I could tell you some complex stories about how humans make choices. Important ones, like concerning their own deaths.

People who think it's all simple and can be reduced to a formula some government can enact into law don't impress me. Quite the contrary.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

People who think it's all simple and can be reduced to a formula some government can enact into law don't impress me.

Yup. None of goobermint’s business whatsoever. I still favor the funding of hotlines, non-profit groups etc. but not intervention.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

People who think it's all simple and can be reduced to a formula some government can enact into law don't impress me. Quite the contrary.

The law is the law. If you break it and get caught, then you'll face the consequences. That's sure to impress you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I stand by my accusation. You think that because you can tolerate your pain, others can too - which is a lack of both imagination and empathy on your part.

You haven't experienced sufficiently severe pain, and you can't imagine that it might exist.

I decline your invitation to a pissing contest; You are unreasonable in declaring that because you don't want to die, nobody else will either.

It's not only the level of pain, but the level of good in life, also.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

At the permanence of the suffering.

Who decides that?

Permanence of condition?That’d be a doctor.

How much suffering? Who decides how much is too much?

A doctor.

There are no simple, one size fits all, answers to the real questions here.

Which is why it’d be a patient by patient thing. Much like most severe medical cases.

You really are asking the wrong questions. The hard part is what would a family’s say be or a spouse’s say be.

It seems you experience with HIV patients hasn’t helped you understand this very well at all. This don’t need to be cookie cutter to work.

 

[Shadowy Man]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

That doesn't seem to be the point to the OP.

But there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

I dunno.

Tom

That’s why rights have regulations. That teenager doesn’t have the same right to a gun either as an adult would and that’s a right actually enumerated in the u.s. constitution.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That’s why rights have regulations. That teenager doesn’t have the same right to a gun either as an adult would and that’s a right actually enumerated in the u.s. constitution.

TomC is right that this isn't cookie cutter compatible. But doctor care, while usually going with the numbers, becomes a very patient to patient thing when comes to serious medical conditions. Any regulatory oversight would be regarding the layers required to get a doctor's sign off. Family say if any. But this is where having a doctor is so important. A doctor needs to know their patient, it makes assisting in this situation so much more feasible. Psychological help would be more consistent with these cases as far as need of determining the state of mind for the patient. The process needs to be thorough, but not bureaucratic.

There is the problem of cost though, which is definitely another bloody roadblock. Granted, letting some people end their lives would be a lot cheaper than the cost of hospice. And the sure the heck a lot more dignified.

 

[TomC]

There is the problem of cost though, which is definitely another bloody roadblock. Granted, letting some people end their lives would be a lot cheaper than the cost of hospice. And the sure the heck a lot more dignified.

That's a whole 'nother issue. One that complicates everything.

From the doctors and hospital to the heirs to the insurance company, there's a ton of people with financial interests. They may well not explain their interests out loud. It wouldn't be a good look if an heir said "I wanted Gramma to choose suicide. I really want a cabin cruiser! Why does that old lady keep blowing my inheritance on private nursing and medical care? She's got nothing to live for anyway."

Humans are messy.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Heirs aren't initiating this. The patient needs to. No one can initiate this but the patient. If the patient can't initiate it, it'd go to a living will.

Insurance companies? Are you kidding? They were paid upfront. If you ax a customer before they need all the outlays, that is a win in their column. Kind a like a Social Security recipient dying at the age of 66 with no spouse.

Hospitals, the harder part would be them pulling audibles like a Catholic hospital saying letting a person die with dignity is against their religion.

Doctors, there are more patients out there. Especially these days with the aging boomers.

 

[TomC]

Heirs aren't initiating this.

How do you know that?

It's a simple truth claim. I'm asking you to back it up.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Heirs aren't initiating this. The patient needs to. No one can initiate this but the patient. If the patient can't initiate it, it'd go to a living will.

Insurance companies? Are you kidding? They were paid upfront. If you ax a customer before they need all the outlays, that is a win in their column. Kind a like a Social Security recipient dying at the age of 66 with no spouse.

He's talking about life insurance companies--they lose if someone chooses euthanasia. However, most people who choose it are close to death anyway, the effect on the life insurance industry will be small. Likewise, a small benefit to the annuity industry. Probably a bigger benefit to the health insurance industry--people often have much of their lifetime medical cost on their final illness.

 

[southernhybrid]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

That doesn't seem to be the point to the OP.

But there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

I dunno.

Tom

A teenager wh was just dumped by her boyfriend and appears to be suicidal needs help to deal with her loss. A person who is suicidal due to some recent tragedy isn't the same as a person who is suffering from a serious disease, including the type of extreme life long depression that caused one of my. uncles to hang himself. Perhaps he would have benefitted from assisted suicide, since he had tried to get help for his mental problems for decades but nothing helped his severe depression.

Right now, the US and Australia only permit physician assisted suicide for those who have a terminal disease with a limited life expectancy. It's a year in Australia and 6 months in the states. I don't believe any American doctor is going to help someone commit suicide unless that person is suffering extremely and has a short life expectancy.

I have mixed feelings about whether someone like my late uncle should have that option. Severe chronic depression is very difficult to treat, so on the one hand, I can support the idea of helping someone's final exit due to suffering for years from severe depression. On the other hand, I can see how difficult it would be to write a Rx. for someone who is physically healthy but suffering from a mental disorder.

My late father had anxiety, and depression and was sometimes manic during his early years.He also had well as severe combat related PTSD, but never once did he want to die, not even in the last days of his life when he was diagnosed with aggressive cancer that took his life in a few weeks. Everyone is different and everyone should be treated as an individual with respect for their wishes. Still, if I were a physician, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable writing a Rx. for someone who was only suffering from a mental disorder, assuming it ever becomes legal. I think that's legal in some European countries and Canada is about to or has just made legal assisted suicide easier to access. I don't know where the line should be drawn.

The book "Final Exit" gives advice to those who may want to commit suicide and can't get help from the medical community. I think I read that book many years ago, out of curiosity. I do think we should try to help healthy people who have suicidal ideations. Sometimes it's just due to a current problem that can be solved. While I wasn't seriously suicidal after the birth of my son, when his father was drafted. into the army when our baby was two weeks old, I sometimes felt like I wanted to die as I was so devastated, stressed out and dealing with post party hormonal issues. I'm glad I didn't kill myself. That is very different from someone who has suffered for years with a chronic, painful disease, or a terminal disease like metastatic cancer. Those who are successful when it comes to suicide are usually the most serious. There are times when a suicide attempt is just a cry for help.

 

[TomC]

That isn't suicide. It's just allowing nature to take its course.

That's the huge difference between DNR and assisted suicide. DNR is insisting on letting nature take it's course, while you're still competent enough to insist on anything. Assisted suicide is very different.
Tom

Sure but the heart of the matter in this discussion is the “right”. Since DNRs are legal there is *some* right. It is just regulated (like all rights are to varying degree) such that assisted suicide is not necessarily legal.

That doesn't seem to be the point to the OP.

But there are two words there that a far more complicated than a simple yes or no answer.
"All" and "right".

Does a teenager, who was just dumped by her boyfriend, have the same "right" to assisted suicide as a 75 year old stroke patient? If not, where do you(as an individual or a society) draw the line between her right and the elderly woman's rights?

I dunno.

Tom

A teenager wh was just dumped by her boyfriend and appears to be suicidal needs help to deal with her loss. A person who is suicidal due to some recent tragedy isn't the same as a person who is suffering from a serious disease, including the type of extreme life long depression that caused one of my. uncles to hang himself. Perhaps he would have benefitted from assisted suicide, since he had tried to get help for his mental problems for decades but nothing helped his severe depression.

Right now, the US and Australia only permit physician assisted suicide for those who have a terminal disease with a limited life expectancy. It's a year in Australia and 6 months in the states. I don't believe any American doctor is going to help someone commit suicide unless that person is suffering extremely and has a short life expectancy.

I have mixed feelings about whether someone like my late uncle should have that option. Severe chronic depression is very difficult to treat, so on the one hand, I can support the idea of helping someone's final exit due to suffering for years from severe depression. On the other hand, I can see how difficult it would be to write a Rx. for someone who is physically healthy but suffering from a mental disorder.

My late father had anxiety, and depression and was sometimes manic during his early years.He also had well as severe combat related PTSD, but never once did he want to die, not even in the last days of his life when he was diagnosed with aggressive cancer that took his life in a few weeks. Everyone is different and everyone should be treated as an individual with respect for their wishes. Still, if I were a physician, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable writing a Rx. for someone who was only suffering from a mental disorder, assuming it ever becomes legal. I think that's legal in some European countries and Canada is about to or has just made legal assisted suicide easier to access. I don't know where the line should be drawn.

The book "Final Exit" gives advice to those who may want to commit suicide and can't get help from the medical community. I think I read that book many years ago, out of curiosity. I do think we should try to help healthy people who have suicidal ideations. Sometimes it's just due to a current problem that can be solved. While I wasn't seriously suicidal after the birth of my son, when his father was drafted. into the army when our baby was two weeks old, I sometimes felt like I wanted to die as I was so devastated, stressed out and dealing with post party hormonal issues. I'm glad I didn't kill myself. That is very different from someone who has suffered for years with a chronic, painful disease, or a terminal disease like metastatic cancer. Those who are successful when it comes to suicide are usually the most serious. There are times when a suicide attempt is just a cry for help.

Just to clarify, my post was about the huge gray area between the two extremes. Explain why words like "all" and "right" leave out the reality of the human situation.

You can't ignore the reality. It includes subjective opinions and assessments and murky motivations. "Do all people have a right to die?" is a ridiculously simplistic question.
Tom

ETA ~This is especially difficult in a world of capitalist health care. "Best outcome for patient is a side effect of maximizing profits, not the primary goal of the health care system." ~

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Heirs aren't initiating this.

How do you know that?

It's a simple truth claim. I'm asking you to back it up.
Tom

I'm saying an heir isn't allowed to. That'd be a rule. This isn't The Holy Grail.

I'm curious why loved ones can't be allowed to die with dignity because of hypotheticals. I mean, how can we make murder illegal... people can try and hide that they killed someone, or frame someone else?

 

[TomC]

Heirs aren't initiating this.

How do you know that?

It's a simple truth claim. I'm asking you to back it up.
Tom

I'm saying an heir isn't allowed to. That'd be a rule. This isn't The Holy Grail.

I'm curious why loved ones can't be allowed to die with dignity because of hypotheticals. I mean, how can we make murder illegal... people can try and hide that they killed someone, or frame someone else?

Maybe when you get older you'll have a less simplistic view of end of life issues.

I wasn't talking about an official, or legal, process. I was talking about what really happens. From people clinging to loved ones to people who wish Dad would just die instead of blowing their inheritance on expensive health care.

Humans are messy.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Heirs aren't initiating this.

How do you know that?

It's a simple truth claim. I'm asking you to back it up.
Tom

I'm saying an heir isn't allowed to. That'd be a rule. This isn't The Holy Grail.

I'm curious why loved ones can't be allowed to die with dignity because of hypotheticals. I mean, how can we make murder illegal... people can try and hide that they killed someone, or frame someone else?

Maybe when you get older you'll have a less simplistic view of end of life issues.

ROFLMAO! Actually, it isn't really that funny. Watching loved ones die is hard. Watching the process have to go out the long and hard way, with the doctors scrambling to keep up with the pain, knowing this pain will be the last things your loved one will know is devastating. Seeing your loved one confused and not recognizing the loved ones surrounding them because of the drugs being pumped into them to try and manage the discomfort because we can't just let them die is mind numbing. Seeing the shell of the person who is alive only because of the brain stem and heart are barely making things work because people like you want to say "But what if...", well... I can't put that maddening frustration into words.