Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Moving forward, another strategy for Israel, following their ineffective approach with Hamas, could be to reconsider the idea of Jordan assuming control over the West Bank, this time including the Gaza Strip in the arrangement. Jordan has historically maintained relative peace at the holy sites, allowing both Christian and Muslim for the most part safe access to Jerusalem. Perhaps this model could be extended to manage the West Bank and Gaza, benefiting Palestinians and Israel as a whole. For this to happen, Israel would need to cease its settlement activities.

Jordan is not a liberal and free country. That's a terrible idea. Don’t hand more power over to autocrats. Nothing good can come of that.

But then again, you're the guy who thinks Saudi Arabia is doing well as a country

 

[Gospel]

Working = Functioning or able to function. That's the word you used.

 

[Gospel]

Jordan is not a liberal and free country. That's a terrible idea. Don’t hand more power over to autocrats. Nothing good can come of that.

You have any ideas besides kill them all?

 

[TomC]

Jordan is not a liberal and free country. That's a terrible idea. Don’t hand more power over to autocrats. Nothing good can come of that.

You have any ideas besides kill them all?

Convince the Palestinians that continuing the violence is a terrible idea, both for them and their children? Got any ideas about that?
Tom

 

[Gospel]

The UN being UN;

The UN’s international court of justice has ordered Israel to ensure its forces do not commit acts of genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, in a historic decision. In an interim judgment delivered on Friday, the president of the court, Joan Donoghue, said Israel must “take all measures within its power” to prevent acts that fall within the scope of the genocide convention and must ensure “with immediate effect” that its forces do not commit any of the acts covered by the convention. The court stopped short of granting South Africa’s request to order an immediate ceasefire to the war. Donoghue said Israel must “take all measures within its power to prevent” killing Palestinians, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction in whole or in part of the Palestinian group, and imposing measures intended to prevent births of Palestinians.

And Teh Gruaniad being Teh Gruaniad;

The ruling is not the final word from the court on whether Israel’s actions amount to genocide, but it provides a strong indication that the judges believe there is a credible risk to Palestinians under the genocide convention.

Teh Gruaniad

It seems straightforward, given that Israel already professes to be accomplishing all those things, right?

 

[Gospel]

Jordan is not a liberal and free country. That's a terrible idea. Don’t hand more power over to autocrats. Nothing good can come of that.

You have any ideas besides kill them all?

Convince the Palestinians that continuing the violence is a terrible idea, both for them and their children? Got any ideas about that?
Tom

"Indeed, involving an ally like Jordan in the region becomes crucial, especially since Israel won't be able to maintain its presence there after these events. It raises a significant question: who or what will step in to fill the power vacuum if there isn't a stable government to ensure the Palestinians can control their own destiny? Without this, there's a real concern about the influence of Iran VIA Hezbollah and Hamas again. However, some people, who could be described as overly anxious armchair historians with limited understanding, exclaim in dismay, 'But NO, certainly not the Muslims!'.

How about your thoughts? Do you have any suggestions instead of simply opposing others' ideas without offering a solid argument as to why they wouldn't be effective?

 

[Gospel]

Hammas is the problem. The Palestian leadership is corrupt as fuck. But when Palestinians got to vote, they picked beligerent assholes. Then this is what happens.

Only half the population voted for Hamas dude. Thought this was cleared up ages ago.

 

[Gospel]

When Hammas was in power they wrecked the Gaza economic infrastructure, originally built by Jews, and just handed over when Gaza got autonomy. Hammas is most of the problem.

This is something I agree with. I wish you had presented this point separately so I could have shown my appreciation for it with a like, but it's entangled with other less appealing content.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Hammas is the problem. The Palestian leadership is corrupt as fuck. But when Palestinians got to vote, they picked beligerent assholes. Then this is what happens.

Only half the population voted for Hamas dude. Thought this was cleared up ages ago.

From Washington Post: "The election that led to Hamas taking over Gaza":

The election yielded a shock victory for Hamas, which won the most seats with some 44 percent of the vote. Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace, which advocates for rapprochement and peace between Israelis and Palestinians, recently observed that in no single district in Gaza did Hamas win a majority of votes. At present, children make up roughly half of Gaza’s population, meaning only a fraction of the territory’s current population ever cast a ballot for Hamas.

 

[bilby]

Hammas is the problem. The Palestian leadership is corrupt as fuck. But when Palestinians got to vote, they picked beligerent assholes. Then this is what happens.

Only half the population voted for Hamas dude. Thought this was cleared up ages ago.

From Washington Post: "The election that led to Hamas taking over Gaza":

The election yielded a shock victory for Hamas, which won the most seats with some 44 percent of the vote. Lara Friedman, president of the Foundation for Middle East Peace, which advocates for rapprochement and peace between Israelis and Palestinians, recently observed that in no single district in Gaza did Hamas win a majority of votes. At present, children make up roughly half of Gaza’s population, meaning only a fraction of the territory’s current population ever cast a ballot for Hamas.

Only a fraction of the current US population ever cast a ballot for Trump.

Didn't stop him from gaining office, nor from attempting a coup to try to remain there.

 

[Copernicus]

Jordan is not a liberal and free country. That's a terrible idea. Don’t hand more power over to autocrats. Nothing good can come of that.

You have any ideas besides kill them all?

Convince the Palestinians that continuing the violence is a terrible idea, both for them and their children? Got any ideas about that?
Tom

Most of the folks being slaughtered don't seem to be the ones actually committing the violence. That would be Hamas. You remember, don't you? The terrorist organization holding hostages? Most Palestinians don't need to be convinced that continuing the violence is a terrible idea, but they don't have the option of voting Hamas out of office. Israelis have repeatedly voted their leadership into office, so maybe they are more amenable to being convinced to stop the violence.

 

[lpetrich]

At The Hague, Israel Mounted a Defense Based in an Alternate Reality - "Israel’s rebuttal against charges of genocide was as weak in offering documented facts as South Africa’s case was powerful."

The lawyers portrayed Israel as the actual victim of genocide, not Gaza, accused South Africa of supporting Hamas, and painted South Africa’s government as functioning as the legal arm of the Palestinian militants who led the deadly raids into Israel on October 7.

Israel benefitted greatly from the fact that there was no cross examination permitted or debate allowed during these proceedings. It embarked on a bold mission to do in a court of international law what its military and political officials have done day and night throughout the course of this war against Gaza: unleash a deluge of what was known within the Trump administration as “alternative facts.”

Israel’s defense was the inverse of South Africa’s case yesterday, and as weak in offering documented facts as South Africa’s was powerful. History began on October 7, the Israelis seemed to say, South Africa is Hamas, South Africa did not give Israel a chance to meet up and chat about Gaza before suing for genocide, and actually the Israel Defense Forces is the most moral entity on Earth. As for the voluminous public statements by senior Israeli officials indicating genocidal intent, those were just “random assertions” by some irrelevant underlings. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s statements invoking a murderous story from the Bible about killing the women, infants, and cattle of your enemies? The South Africans just don’t understand theology and presented Netanyahu’s words out of context.

While Israel’s lawyers made legal arguments that the genocide charges leveled against it are invalid, their primary strategy was to appeal to the court on jurisdictional and procedural matters, hoping that they could form the basis for the panel of international judges to dismiss South Africa’s case. Aware of the global audience, Israel also sought to reinforce its claims of righteousness and self-defense in fighting the war in Gaza.

My favorite lawyer joke: If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table. Israel's defense was essentially pounding on the table.

 

[TomC]

Most of the folks being slaughtered don't seem to be the ones actually committing the violence. That would be Hamas.

I see no way to clearly distinguish between Gazans, Hamas supporters, and Hamas.
What is clear is that nearly all casualties in Gaza(as well as Israel) died because of Islamic violence.

You remember, don't you? The terrorist organization holding hostages?

You mean the Gazan leadership. The people who could find resources enough to launch an attack on Israel, but not enough to provide Gazans with basic needs like water and power?

Most Palestinians don't need to be convinced that continuing the violence is a terrible idea,

You say that as though it's obvious, but it clearly isn't.
I'm sure that there are such Gazans. But not enough to stop the military buildup that resulted in the current disaster. That's a demonstrable fact. Gazans, as a whole, didn't do anything effective to protect themselves from Hamas' behavior.

but they don't have the option of voting Hamas out of office.

That's kinda a problem in Muslim cultures. Secular democracy is anti-Muslim.

Israelis have repeatedly voted their leadership into office, so maybe they are more amenable to being convinced to stop the violence.

What possible reasons would Israelis have for voting for anyone who doesn't run on "security, by whatever means necessary" platform?
It's clear that their neighbors do not, even cannot, value peace and prosperity.
It's unIslamic, apparently.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Hammas is the problem. The Palestian leadership is corrupt as fuck. But when Palestinians got to vote, they picked beligerent assholes. Then this is what happens.

Only half the population voted for Hamas dude. Thought this was cleared up ages ago.

Bullshit.
Less than half of Gazans have ever had the option of voting.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Granted, but if you've been closely following the situation, it's clear that Israel has continuously engaged in actions against the Palestinians, not allowing enough respite for forgiveness.

It's also clear that near all the Israeli actions are a response to a violent assault by Islamic people. It's the Islamic terrorists who refuse to allow enough respite for forgiveness.
Tom

It is pretty obvious that both sides have insufficient potential for forgiveness.

 

[Gospel]

If the British had permitted Jewish communities to develop naturally alongside the indigenous Palestinians, rather than endorsing the formation of an Israeli state, there's a chance – albeit speculative – the region would be dealing with a more enduring situation today. After all, Palestine has historically been a land consisting of Arabs and Jews, encompassing both Christians and Muslims despite major conquests. Israel's approach which amounts to population control in Gaza and the West Bank, driven by concerns over being outnumbered by Teh Muslims and thus compromising its democratic identity, is an unsustainable strategy for national growth. If Israel intends to progress and not remain isolated behind its walls, it needs to reconsider that approach.

Iran and others should focus more on addressing their internal issues instead of attempting to shape the world according to their views. This applies to China and Russia as well.

The USA also needs to improve its approach to international affairs, as our current actions are far from exemplary.

 

[laughing dog]

Most of the folks being slaughtered don't seem to be the ones actually committing the violence. That would be Hamas.

I see no way to clearly distinguish between Gazans, Hamas supporters, and Hamas.
What is clear is that nearly all casualties in Gaza(as well as Israel) died because of Islamic violence.

No, nearly all the casualties in Gaza are the result of IDF violence. I realize you believe the IDF revenge is justified, but that does not negate the direct cause and effect.

Repeating your falsehood does not make it true.

 

[Gospel]

Hammas is the problem. The Palestian leadership is corrupt as fuck. But when Palestinians got to vote, they picked beligerent assholes. Then this is what happens.

Only half the population voted for Hamas dude. Thought this was cleared up ages ago.

Bullshit.
Less than half of Gazans have ever had the option of voting.
Tom

My point pertains specifically to the voter turnout in 2006. I haven’t mentioned any elections post-Hamas takeover. It’s unclear why there’s such a strong reaction as if I’ve stated something controversial. It seems there’s a tendency to misconstrue my words and react to those assumptions rather than what I've actually said

 

[TomC]

Granted, but if you've been closely following the situation, it's clear that Israel has continuously engaged in actions against the Palestinians, not allowing enough respite for forgiveness.

It's also clear that near all the Israeli actions are a response to a violent assault by Islamic people. It's the Islamic terrorists who refuse to allow enough respite for forgiveness.
Tom

It is pretty obvious that both sides have insufficient potential for forgiveness.

That isn't obvious to me at all.
As far as I can tell, if Muslims stopped attacking Israel, Israel would be over it in a few years.

The last many centuries of oppression have rather developed a "live and let live" attitude in Jewish culture.

Over the last century or so, Zionists have developed a "but, don't fuck with me because I'll make you regret it!" attitude as well.

Most all of what is referred to as Jewish oppression and apartheid is that latter part.

I honestly do see them more like the first black family in a white neighborhood than conquistadors.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Most of the folks being slaughtered don't seem to be the ones actually committing the violence. That would be Hamas.

I see no way to clearly distinguish between Gazans, Hamas supporters, and Hamas.
What is clear is that nearly all casualties in Gaza(as well as Israel) died because of Islamic violence.

No, nearly all the casualties in Gaza are the result of IDF violence. I realize you believe the IDF revenge is justified, but that does not negate the direct cause and effect.

Repeating your falsehood does not make it true.

IDF violence is clearly a result of Gazan violence.
That is the cause and effect. Gazans attacked Israel and Israeli struck back hard, because they know that half measures just invite more violence.
Tom