Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Gaza: Pope speaks out after IDF sniper kills two women inside church, per Catholic authorities | CNN

A mother and daughter were killed while walking to the Sister’s Convent and seven others shot and wounded, according to the patriarchate.

amp.cnn.com

And the evidence that it was IDF and not Hamas is???

The evidence appears to be witness testimony. You can say they are mistaken and there is some possibility there, but you seem to be convinced on ideological grounds.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Here are contradictory accounts.

IDF refutes claim it targeted sole Catholic church in Gaza after 2 women said killed

Army says review found no indication of parish being hit or civilians harmed, after patriarchate says mother and daughter were killed by IDF sniper fire; pope condemns 'terrorism'

www.timesofisrael.com

IDF confirms 'incident' at Gaza church after patriarch says 2 Christian women killed, convent bombed

The Latin Patriarch claims the IDF attacked Holy Family Parish in Gaza, killing two Christian women inside the church and striking a convent caring for the disabled with a rocket.

www.foxnews.com

 

[TomC]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

Nevertheless,
Gazans attacked Israel, caused a bunch of death and destruction, and took hostages.
The hostages got shot because Gazans put them in the line of fire and some IDF soldiers had no way to distinguish them from the kind of violent Islamicist terrorists who orchestrated Oct 7.

This happened because Gazans, even the ones who aren't in leadership positions, support violence. Hamas is in the 17th year of a 4 year term because Gazans generally support them. Hamas has no need to hold elections.
So they don't.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

Nevertheless,
Gazans attacked Israel, caused a bunch of death and destruction, and took hostages.
The hostages got shot because Gazans put them in the line of fire and some IDF soldiers had no way to distinguish them from the kind of violent Islamicist terrorists who orchestrated Oct 7.

This happened because Gazans, even the ones who aren't in leadership positions, support violence. Hamas is in the 17th year of a 4 year term because Gazans generally support them. Hamas has no need to hold elections.
So they don't.
Tom

No one is excusing the murdering, raping, and kidnapping. Hamas committed horrific crimes against humanity on Oct. 7th. But I disagree with the contention that shooting the escaping hostages was justifiable under the circumstances as we know them.

It appears the men were not instructed to stop walking, or to lie on the ground, or given any instructions by the IDF soldiers who spotted them. It also appears there was no active firefight underway, so no fog of war causing confusion. The men were shirtless and only carrying a stick with a white rag tied to it. There was no reason for the IDF soldiers to suspect they were suicide bombers. Even if they had suspected it, the first response should have been to yell at them to halt, or freeze, or whatever the term is that the Israelis use. Instead, they were shot on sight, which leads people to suspect that the IDF is shooting all adult males in Gaza regardless of whether those persons are posing any threat.

 

[laughing dog]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

Nevertheless,
Gazans attacked Israel, caused a bunch of death and destruction, and took hostages.
The hostages got shot because Gazans put them in the line of fire and some IDF soldiers had no way to distinguish them from the kind of violent Islamicist terrorists who orchestrated Oct 7…

. I seriously doubt the IDF uses bljnd, deaf, mute, fucking idiots as soldiers. Which leads me to conclude your response is ridiculous.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

The problem is Hamas had been doing similar things. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this wasn't the same tricks Hamas had been playing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is that Hamas was pretending to be civilians.

What?

Hamas wasn’t even there. Didn’t you read it?

Huh? Hamas wasn't at that particular spot, but the troops had been dealing with Hamas pretending to be civilians to maneuver into an advantageous position and had been dealing with suicide bombers.

the hostages had either escaped or had been abandoned by the captors and were unarmed.

Hamas wasn’t even there. So isn’t this the IDF thinking “shoot anyone you see in Gaza, there are no civialians.” ?
This is you saying “There is no condition in gaza that prevents any human from being shot by IDF no matter what they do. Even if they are actual Israeli ex hostages speaking in hebrew waving a white flag. There ARE NO CIVILIANS to the IDF.”

And isn’t that both lazy and monstrous?

(as a side note, I bet the person(s) who pulled the triggers will have trauma for life over this terrible policy of considering all civilians to be enemies.)

It's not that there are no civilians. It's that Hamas pretends to be civilians--someone appearing to be civilian does not make them a non-combatant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gaza: Pope speaks out after IDF sniper kills two women inside church, per Catholic authorities | CNN

A mother and daughter were killed while walking to the Sister’s Convent and seven others shot and wounded, according to the patriarchate.

amp.cnn.com

And the evidence that it was IDF and not Hamas is???

The evidence appears to be witness testimony. You can say they are mistaken and there is some possibility there, but you seem to be convinced on ideological grounds.

But what did the witnesses see? You normally do not see much of anything of a sniper.

And they are in Gaza. Even if they knew it was Hamas they wouldn't dare say so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here are contradictory accounts.

IDF refutes claim it targeted sole Catholic church in Gaza after 2 women said killed

Army says review found no indication of parish being hit or civilians harmed, after patriarchate says mother and daughter were killed by IDF sniper fire; pope condemns 'terrorism'

www.timesofisrael.com

IDF confirms 'incident' at Gaza church after patriarch says 2 Christian women killed, convent bombed

The Latin Patriarch claims the IDF attacked Holy Family Parish in Gaza, killing two Christian women inside the church and striking a convent caring for the disabled with a rocket.

www.foxnews.com

The second article shows they were in the area. It says nothing about sniping.

 

[Arctish]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

The problem is Hamas had been doing similar things. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this wasn't the same tricks Hamas had been playing.

Hamas has been sending unarmed shirtless guys waving white flags out to surrender to IDF forces?

Wow, I bet that's a fascinating news story. Please link to it so we can read it for ourselves.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The problem is that Hamas was pretending to be civilians.

What?

Hamas wasn’t even there. Didn’t you read it?

Huh? Hamas wasn't at that particular spot, but the troops had been dealing with Hamas pretending to be civilians to maneuver into an advantageous position and had been dealing with suicide bombers.

the hostages had either escaped or had been abandoned by the captors and were unarmed.

Hamas wasn’t even there. So isn’t this the IDF thinking “shoot anyone you see in Gaza, there are no civialians.” ?
This is you saying “There is no condition in gaza that prevents any human from being shot by IDF no matter what they do. Even if they are actual Israeli ex hostages speaking in hebrew waving a white flag. There ARE NO CIVILIANS to the IDF.”

And isn’t that both lazy and monstrous?

(as a side note, I bet the person(s) who pulled the triggers will have trauma for life over this terrible policy of considering all civilians to be enemies.)

It's not that there are no civilians. It's that Hamas pretends to be civilians--someone appearing to be civilian does not make them a non-combatant.

I’m sure that the families of the dead hostages will feel better knowing that the soldiers considered it best to be safe than sorry and shoot first.

In all seriousness, your comment doesn’t hold water because the Israelis admitted these actions were against their rules of engagement; so, even though you are making excuses for them it’s apparently no excuse given their own military rules.

 

[bilby]

The problem is Hamas had been doing similar things. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this wasn't the same tricks Hamas had been playing.

How are Hamas going to "trick" the IDF by walking slowly into the IDF's field of fire, shirtless, with their hands up, carrying a white flag?

Any Hamas fighter who does this is not "playing tricks", he is surrendering, and shooting him would be a war crime.

Seriously, do you even think about your insane accusations before posting them?

What "similar things" can Hamas possibly have been doing, other than attempting to surrender??

A couple of soldiers have replaced the official rules of engagement with the simplifying idea that anything that moves that isn't in an IDF uniform is an enemy combatant.

It seems extraordinarily unlikely that the only IDF soldiers to have made this criminal simplification to their rules of engagement just happened to be the ones who encountered some escsped hostages.

No, this incident suggests very strongly that many members of the IDF have the same attitude that soldiers throughout history have had to civilians in occupied territory - shoot them all, because even if they're not fighting us today, they will be tomorrow.

That attitude is completely understandable, and has been a fundamental part of every soldier's mindset for thousands of years. It's also a war crime, and the chain of command is required by international conventions to stop it from happening, to drum into every soldier that it is unacceptable, and to ensure that they are severely punished should they fall into that lazy and evil mindset.

That this crime was committed strongly suggests that at the very least, some NCOs are (or were) complicit; And that this kind of crime is probably endemic (as it would not be likely to be detected unless by some terrible stroke of bad luck, an IDF patrol were to encounter some escaped hostages).

 

[laughing dog]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

The problem is Hamas had been doing similar things. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this wasn't the same tricks Hamas had been playing.

That is a problem. Just like the soldiers’ fear was a problem and the “ shoot first, ask later” is a problem.

 

[Patooka]

That is a problem. Just like the soldiers’ fear was a problem and the “ shoot first, ask later” is a problem.

No, if it has happened before then it isn't just a problem. It's also a pattern.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No the problem was the kidnapping first

The IDF shot and killed the hostages. The doldiers were in mi danger and they let their fear overshelm them.

Nevertheless,
Gazans attacked Israel, caused a bunch of death and destruction, and took hostages.
The hostages got shot because Gazans put them in the line of fire and some IDF soldiers had no way to distinguish them from the kind of violent Islamicist terrorists who orchestrated Oct 7.

This happened because Gazans, even the ones who aren't in leadership positions, support violence. Hamas is in the 17th year of a 4 year term because Gazans generally support them. Hamas has no need to hold elections.
So they don't.
Tom

No one is excusing the murdering, raping, and kidnapping. Hamas committed horrific crimes against humanity on Oct. 7th. But I disagree with the contention that shooting the escaping hostages was justifiable under the circumstances as we know them.

It appears the men were not instructed to stop walking, or to lie on the ground, or given any instructions by the IDF soldiers who spotted them. It also appears there was no active firefight underway, so no fog of war causing confusion. The men were shirtless and only carrying a stick with a white rag tied to it. There was no reason for the IDF soldiers to suspect they were suicide bombers. Even if they had suspected it, the first response should have been to yell at them to halt, or freeze, or whatever the term is that the Israelis use. Instead, they were shot on sight, which leads people to suspect that the IDF is shooting all adult males in Gaza regardless of whether those persons are posing any threat.

That's what tends to happen when a force fights in civilian attire. They keep facing fire from adult males in civilian attire pretending to be civilians. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this case was different.

 

[lpetrich]

Back in October, steve_bank linked to a CNN report about Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich speaking onstage behind a podium adorned with a 'Greater Israel' map that clearly depicts large swathes of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon as part of the State of Israel.

 Irgun - that pre-independence Zionist militia's emblem had the same map - it shows both Israel and Jordan, back then Palestine and Transjordan. Britain's original Palestine Mandate included both, and some Zionists were disappointed when Britain decided to make Transjordan a separate territory.

On both maps is a depiction of the Sea of Galilee, the Jordan River, and the Dead Sea -- the river goes between the first sea and the second.

 

[Arctish]

That's what tends to happen when a force fights in civilian attire. They keep facing fire from adult males in civilian attire pretending to be civilians. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this case was different.

Even if you can link to news articles or pictures that show how Hamas fighters go around shirtless (and if you can, please do), you still have to address the fact the men who were killed were waving a white flag, there was no exchange of fire or apparent immediate danger at that time, and that that they gave every indication they were surrendering.

Killing people who are surrendering is a war crime even if they are Hamas fighters and you hate them.

 

[laughing dog]

That's what tends to happen when a force fights in civilian attire. They keep facing fire from adult males in civilian attire pretending to be civilians. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this case was different.

Exactly the issue - these soldiers did not bother to find out. They were not under attack. The victims were shirtless and waving a white flag - there was no visible immediate threat.

 

[Arctish]

Does anyone know what training IDF soldiers receive on how to approach friendly forces if they've managed to escape captivity?

 

[Gospel]

That's what tends to happen when a force fights in civilian attire. They keep facing fire from adult males in civilian attire pretending to be civilians. A couple of soldiers didn't realize this case was different.

Exactly the issue - these soldiers did not bother to find out. They were not under attack. The victims were shirtless and waving a white flag - there was no visible immediate threat.

Some people hesitate to admit that those they defend have faults, fearing it might validate the opposing side's errors. Just sayin. An old adage passed on from my grand pops.