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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Since your response ignores the condition of “if at first”, you should try something else, possibly on point.
Every time Israel tries "something else" (a peaceful approach) they end up suffering. But you keep demanding they do what experience shows always produces a bad outcome.
It seems like that is true for Israelis and Palestinians (especially in the West Bank).
Can you actually address the point??
Yes. I did. Which word(s) confused you?
Saying you addressed it doesn't mean you did.
Saying I didn't doesn't mean I didn't. You conflate your unwillingness or inability to think outside your narrow world view with an evasion.
Observation: Every time Israel tries to do good they end up hurt. When they are harsh, they are less hurt. What outcome do you expect?
Observation - every time Israel acts harshly, they end up with a worse attack in the future. What outcome do you expect?
 
And no, I do not support Hamas. And I care a lot more about Israelis, let alone "Jews" than does someone like yourself, who supports using them as meat shields to fight a proxy war against Iran. Cowards hire someone to fight for them, in someone else's backyard. Do you self-identify as a coward? Do you think your country should be cowardly on your behalf, and throw other people's children in front of bullets for you?
You say you don't support Hamas but you do exactly what Hamas wants you to do.

Funny thing, Loren, if you actually read Hamas’ own strategy, they want people like you. They rely on defenders of Israel to label every critic as Hamas-aligned, because it proves their point to Palestinians that the world won’t ever care about their civilians. Every time you erase civilian deaths with this lazy ‘you’re helping Hamas’ line, you’re literally running Hamas’ playbook for them. Even Netanyahu doesn’t pull the stunt you’re pulling. He admits civilians are dying, he frames the fight as against Hamas not all Palestinians, and he occasionally tries to separate sympathy for civilians from support for Hamas. If you really want to deny Hamas propaganda fuel, maybe take notes from him instead of running the extremist script where every critic magically becomes a Hamas supporter.
 
Before 7/10 most Israelis thought he was paranoid for hammering on about Irans plan to attack Israel. He was proven correct.
Oddly enough, while PM, didn't apparently give a fuck about the red flags that were waving around prior to the massacre. Much like W, he was rewarded for his incompetence.

Sure. But nobody in Israel thought it was going to happen. They thought the cost of Israeli retaliation was enough to deter Hamas.
*ROTFLMFAO*

Then why the barriers and fences?
But nobody would have considered a war where one side uses their own population as human shields. That’s unique in world history.
I don't know. Russia has been pretty big on using civilians as fodder, but at least they put them unarmed on the front lines.
Israeli voters know this now. Which will be excellent for him next election.
You aren't paying much attention to the on-goings in Israel, are you.
Yes, I am. But I blame all Palestinian deaths on Hamas. I am sure many Israelis do as well. That said, if there would be an election now he would lose.
So stepping back from the "Which will be excellent for him next election" statement from a couple posts back I see.
The fact that the 7/10 attack happened on his watch has been bad for him. But since the war his popularity has risen again.*
* - statement unsupported.
If I recall now 46% trust Netanyahu a lot while 56 % don't trust him. 76% want him to resign. So many Israelis who trust him as a politician still wants him to resign. He's in a pretty unique position as a politician. Much of this war is completely unique*
* - uncited
 
And no, I do not support Hamas. And I care a lot more about Israelis, let alone "Jews" than does someone like yourself, who supports using them as meat shields to fight a proxy war against Iran. Cowards hire someone to fight for them, in someone else's backyard. Do you self-identify as a coward? Do you think your country should be cowardly on your behalf, and throw other people's children in front of bullets for you?
You say you don't support Hamas but you do exactly what Hamas wants you to do.
Hamas wants peace between nations, socialized medicine, and improved cultural education? I must say, I am very surprised to learn that.
 
So by "Iran" you don't mean literally Iran, just... anyone that Iran supports in some way? Do you likewise consider every action by Israel to be "what the United States did"?

I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran.

We know now that the 7/10 was supposed to be a coordinated attack by Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas. All organisations controlled by Iran. Hamas just attacked prematurely. For some reason.

The military hardware that was supposed to be fired into Israel has already landed in Israel. Except Hezbollah's rockets. Hezbollah was crippled by Israel.

Israel is an independent country. They don't only act on the orders of USA. They are dependent on US support for their survival. But that's not the same thing as being a puppet regime.

If you equate Israels regime with that of Hamas then I will accuse you of anti Jewish race hate. So prevalent in the western left right now.
You're supporting genocidal actions against real human beings because of internet conspiracy theories? Yeah, no way that could end badly... :rolleyes:
You're being as bad as the MAGAs automatically not believing anything from the mainstream media.
I mean, I do think it's healthy to be skeptical about the news, but what are you specifically referring to? I've not seen any reputable media source describing Iran as single-handedly responsible for the governance and military strategy of the nations they are in alliance with.
 
The conspiracy actually happened. So I'm not sure what you are arguing against?
Well, no, it didn't. I don't suppose you have any evidence for such an absurd claim?
The news reports I read said that Hamas kept the attack plans (including the date) as secret as possible, that Hamas expected support from Hezbollah, the Houthis, and that Iran was taken by surprise by the attack. If those reports ate accurate, it doesn’t sound much like a conspiracy to me.
The control Iran has is loose. Hamas does in general what Iran wants but Iran doesn't have day to day control.

And just because they said it was a surprise doesn't make it so.
Perhaps you consider "loose" and "complete" to be synonyms, but that is certainly not what I mean when I say "complete control".
 
The conspiracy actually happened. So I'm not sure what you are arguing against?
Well, no, it didn't. I don't suppose you have any evidence for such an absurd claim?
The news reports I read said that Hamas kept the attack plans (including the date) as secret as possible, that Hamas expected support from Hezbollah, the Houthis, and that Iran was taken by surprise by the attack. If those reports ate accurate, it doesn’t sound much like a conspiracy to me.
The control Iran has is loose. Hamas does in general what Iran wants but Iran doesn't have day to day control.

And just because they said it was a surprise doesn't make it so.
Who is this “they” ? I didn’t say mention anyone in particular.

Initial US intelligence suggests Iran was surprised by the Hamas attack on Israel
The United States has collected specific intelligence that suggests senior Iranian government officials were caught by surprise by Saturday’s bloody attack on Israel by Hamas, according to multiple sources familiar with the intelligence.......“Iran likely knew Hamas was planning operations against Israel, but without the precise timing or scope of what occurred,” said one US official. “Although Iran has long supported Hamas with material and financial support, we have not currently seen anything to suggest Iran supported or was behind the attack.”
If you have a source that provides different information, it would make your claim more credible if you provided it.
 
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And no, I do not support Hamas. And I care a lot more about Israelis, let alone "Jews" than does someone like yourself, who supports using them as meat shields to fight a proxy war against Iran. Cowards hire someone to fight for them, in someone else's backyard. Do you self-identify as a coward? Do you think your country should be cowardly on your behalf, and throw other people's children in front of bullets for you?
You say you don't support Hamas but you do exactly what Hamas wants you to do.

Funny thing, Loren, if you actually read Hamas’ own strategy, they want people like you. They rely on defenders of Israel to label every critic as Hamas-aligned, because it proves their point to Palestinians that the world won’t ever care about their civilians. Every time you erase civilian deaths with this lazy ‘you’re helping Hamas’ line, you’re literally running Hamas’ playbook for them. Even Netanyahu doesn’t pull the stunt you’re pulling. He admits civilians are dying, he frames the fight as against Hamas not all Palestinians, and he occasionally tries to separate sympathy for civilians from support for Hamas. If you really want to deny Hamas propaganda fuel, maybe take notes from him instead of running the extremist script where every critic magically becomes a Hamas supporter.

Wait what? Just stop. Loren did no such thing.

Everyone involved claims to care about Palestinian civilians.

Some are just trying to hold Israel responsible for Hamas using civilians as human shields (Gazan civilians and civilian Israeli hostages). Like you. That's a moral failure imho.

Some try to argue that Isreal should stop, becuase of some hypothetical method of us being able to talk Hamas out of power in Gaza. Not particularly realistic, considering that Hamas is extremely well funded. And because the UN still treats Hamas as the legitimate govornment of Gaza. Ie, the moment Israel backs off, Hamas will be in charge of the foreign aid again. The only realistic and workeably plan is the one Israel is now enacting. It doesn't really matter that Israel's actions are messy. It's the ONLY realistic option right now (if we're serious about removing Hamas from power). Anything else and you're arguing for keeping Hamas in power. Those are the only options right now. If you think anything else you are not engaging with reality.
 
The only realistic and workeably plan is the one Israel is now enacting.

Correct, and I’ve never said otherwise. You keep inventing things about me that I’ve never claimed. What is that makes you spin these fantasies?
 
Wait what? Just stop. Loren did no such thing.

So you’re denying that Hamas benefits when concern for Palestinian civilians is dismissed, or worse, treated with hostility? Yes, Hamas uses civilians as shields. Yes, Hamas bears responsibility for many of those deaths. But to suggest that only Hamas supporters would care about those civilians sends exactly the message Hamas wants: that Palestinian lives don’t matter. When people demand that we stop caring about civilians, they’re not undermining Hamas, they’re reinforcing its narrative and handing it propaganda fuel.
 
Wait what? Just stop. Loren did no such thing.

So you’re denying that Hamas benefits when concern for Palestinian civilians is dismissed, or worse, treated with hostility?

What are you talking about? Israel is litterally invading Gaza to rid Gaza from Hamas. Ie, the only side in this conflict that cares about civilians.


Yes, Hamas uses civilians as shields. Yes, Hamas bears responsibility for many of those deaths.

No. All of the deaths. All of them.

But to suggest that only Hamas supporters would care about those civilians sends exactly the message Hamas wants: that Palestinian lives don’t matter.

Only lunatics would say such a thing. Too bad the left today is gripped by a kind of collective psychosis right now. The fact that many share the view makes it less excusable. Not more.


When people demand that we stop caring about civilians, they’re not undermining Hamas, they’re reinforcing its narrative and handing it propaganda fuel.

What? This sentence makes no sense.

I care about the wellbeing of Palestinian civilians. Which is why I support Israel right now. The only player that currently solve the problem. If someone else wants to join in, it might go faster, but that won't lessen the suffering of Gazan civilians. Hamas has seen to that

There is only one viable solutions available and Israel is doing it
 
Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

The IDF has publicly accepted responsibility for some civilian deaths. That’s a documented fact you're dismissing simply because it’s coming from me. :rolleyes:

Like I said, the danger comes when people like yourself dismiss or ridicule concern for civilians, it plays directly into Hamas’ hands by reinforcing the idea that Palestinian lives don’t matter. Recognizing civilian loss doesn’t weaken Israel’s case, it strengthens it by showing the difference between a military that at least tries to acknowledge collateral damage and a terrorist group that deliberately seeks it.

Your arguments aren’t helping Israel, if anything, they’re more likely to do harm than good, in my opinion.
 
Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

Sure. But Israel is going above and beyond to protect civilians. Its still a war on. They're doing what they can to minimise civilian casualties without taking pressure off Hamas. The last bit is important. They are at war and need to do what they need to do to win.

If you can't see that Israel is trying to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering then I'll accuse you of unreasonable demands on Israel.




The IDF has publicly accepted responsibility for some civilian deaths. That’s a documented fact you're dismissing simply because it’s coming from me. :rolleyes:

I haven't dismissed it.

Its a war. Mistakes are bound to happen. And they have. Israel has taken responsibility whenever it fucks up.

Israels problem is that most people don't care. The moment most people find any excuse to hate Jews, its jew hate. Its an unfortunate pattern in the west.





Like I said, the danger comes when people like yourself dismiss or ridicule concern for civilians, it plays directly into Hamas’ hands by reinforcing the idea that Palestinian lives don’t matter. Recognizing civilian loss doesn’t weaken Israel’s case, it strengthens it by showing the difference between a military that at least tries to acknowledge collateral damage and a terrorist group that deliberately seeks it.

Agreed. Which is why I haven't dismissed or ridiculed it.

Your arguments aren’t helping Israel, if anything, they’re more likely to do harm than good, in my opinion.

I'm not convinced its not.

Right now so many of the left are so caught up in the Palestinian victimhood narrative they're unable to see how awesome Israel has been handling themselves. No, they're not perfect. But they're pretty good. While to Palestinians, terrible.

If more people poke holes in the absurd left wing narrative the better.

The fact that Palestinian grievances from 48 - 68 have merit, doesn't excuse any of the following Palestinian atrocities. And there have been many. A reaction completely out of any proportion. And also ignoring the political context of the Middle East. The 20th century saw an extreme reshuffling of the political board of the Middle East. People and ethnic groups were kicked off their land and shuffled around. They found a new home and made the best of it. Everyone accept the Palestinians. Every country in the world is full of refugees who have accepted getting pushed out of their ancestral home and making the best of it. That includes a lot of the Jews in Israel.

Palestinians have no singular claim on Israel. We, (as a world community) need to stop encouraging that idea. Its not helping. Its also good if we listen to Palestinians. When they say "from the river to the sea" that means murdering all Jews. That's not cool. To put it mildly.

The western left treat Palestinians as token brown people. We don't listen to them. We cram woke leftist ideologies in their mouths, (they have never expressed) and ignore all the homicidal things they are actually saying and demanding. The 7/10 attack is exactly the kinds of attack Palestinians have been saying they want to carry out since always.

The ignorance among the western left is, in this case, overwhelming. And has real life catastrophic consequences.
 
Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

Sure. But Israel is going above and beyond to protect civilians. Its still a war on. They're doing what they can to minimise civilian casualties without taking pressure off Hamas. The last bit is important. They are at war and need to do what they need to do to win.

If you can't see that Israel is trying to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering then I'll accuse you of unreasonable demands on Israel.
The US went way out of their way to not harm civilians in Iraq during the occupation. Over 100,000 Iraqis died, over 1 million displaced due to the failures of the occupation. And in the process thousands of US troops killed or seriously maimed.

The IDF doesn't have to be trying to harm civilians for there to be negative consequences for Israeli interests. The IDF is trying not to kill civilians, and are failing, and meanwhile the collateral damage is creating almost nothing but future risk to the lives of Israelis.
 
Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

Sure. But Israel is going above and beyond to protect civilians. Its still a war on. They're doing what they can to minimise civilian casualties without taking pressure off Hamas. The last bit is important. They are at war and need to do what they need to do to win.

If you can't see that Israel is trying to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering then I'll accuse you of unreasonable demands on Israel.




The IDF has publicly accepted responsibility for some civilian deaths. That’s a documented fact you're dismissing simply because it’s coming from me. :rolleyes:

I haven't dismissed it.

Its a war. Mistakes are bound to happen. And they have. Israel has taken responsibility whenever it fucks up.

Israels problem is that most people don't care. The moment most people find any excuse to hate Jews, its jew hate. Its an unfortunate pattern in the west.





Like I said, the danger comes when people like yourself dismiss or ridicule concern for civilians, it plays directly into Hamas’ hands by reinforcing the idea that Palestinian lives don’t matter. Recognizing civilian loss doesn’t weaken Israel’s case, it strengthens it by showing the difference between a military that at least tries to acknowledge collateral damage and a terrorist group that deliberately seeks it.

Agreed. Which is why I haven't dismissed or ridiculed it.

Your arguments aren’t helping Israel, if anything, they’re more likely to do harm than good, in my opinion.

I'm not convinced its not.

Right now so many of the left are so caught up in the Palestinian victimhood narrative they're unable to see how awesome Israel has been handling themselves. No, they're not perfect. But they're pretty good. While to Palestinians, terrible.

If more people poke holes in the absurd left wing narrative the better.

The fact that Palestinian grievances from 48 - 68 have merit, doesn't excuse any of the following Palestinian atrocities. And there have been many. A reaction completely out of any proportion. And also ignoring the political context of the Middle East. The 20th century saw an extreme reshuffling of the political board of the Middle East. People and ethnic groups were kicked off their land and shuffled around. They found a new home and made the best of it. Everyone accept the Palestinians. Every country in the world is full of refugees who have accepted getting pushed out of their ancestral home and making the best of it. That includes a lot of the Jews in Israel.

Palestinians have no singular claim on Israel. We, (as a world community) need to stop encouraging that idea. Its not helping. Its also good if we listen to Palestinians. When they say "from the river to the sea" that means murdering all Jews. That's not cool. To put it mildly.

The western left treat Palestinians as token brown people. We don't listen to them. We cram woke leftist ideologies in their mouths, (they have never expressed) and ignore all the homicidal things they are actually saying and demanding. The 7/10 attack is exactly the kinds of attack Palestinians have been saying they want to carry out since always.

The ignorance among the western left is, in this case, overwhelming. And has real life catastrophic consequences.

You’re shifting the goalposts. I’ve never denied that Israel is at war, or that Hamas bears responsibility for using civilians as shields. My point is that dismissing or mocking concern for civilian lives doesn’t help Israel, it fuels Hamas propaganda. Israel itself acknowledges civilian deaths when they occur. That acknowledgment doesn’t weaken their legitimacy, it strengthens it, because it shows the difference between a state that tries to minimize collateral damage and a terrorist group that deliberately causes it.

Equating any recognition of civilian suffering with ‘Jew hate’ is exactly the trap Hamas wants people to fall into, because it turns basic empathy into something suspect. IMO that doesn’t defend Israel, it undermines Israel.
 
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Right now so many of the left are so caught up in the Palestinian victimhood narrative they're unable to see how awesome Israel has been handling themselves. No, they're not perfect. But they're pretty good. While to Palestinians, terrible.

I can’t speak for ‘many on the left,’ and I’m not part of ‘the left.’ What I can speak to is my own experience discussing this issue with you. I don’t have much time to hand out praise to Israel, because most of my posting time is spent defending myself from your baseless claims.

As for whether that harms Israel? It doesn’t, zero impact. But if you actually want to see more positive posts from me about Israel, maybe cut back on the bullshit. That way I can focus on the topic itself instead of wasting time on your accusations and fantasies about what you think I’m saying. :rolleyes:
 
Right now so many of the left are so caught up in the Palestinian victimhood narrative they're unable to see how awesome Israel has been handling themselves. No, they're not perfect. But they're pretty good. While to Palestinians, terrible.

I can’t speak for ‘many on the left,’ and I’m not part of ‘the left.’ What I can speak to is my own experience discussing this issue with you. I don’t have much time to hand out praise to Israel, because most of my posting time is spent defending myself from your baseless claims.

As for whether that harms Israel? It doesn’t, zero impact. But if you actually want to see more positive posts from me about Israel, maybe cut back on the bullshit. That way I can focus on the topic itself instead of wasting time on your accusations and fantasies about what you think I’m saying. :rolleyes:
Don’t hold your breath.
 
Observation: Every time Israel tries to do good they end up hurt. When they are harsh, they are less hurt. What outcome do you expect?
Observation - every time Israel acts harshly, they end up with a worse attack in the future. What outcome do you expect?
The general trend is Israeli deaths go up when they act nice, go down when they act harsh.
 
And no, I do not support Hamas. And I care a lot more about Israelis, let alone "Jews" than does someone like yourself, who supports using them as meat shields to fight a proxy war against Iran. Cowards hire someone to fight for them, in someone else's backyard. Do you self-identify as a coward? Do you think your country should be cowardly on your behalf, and throw other people's children in front of bullets for you?
You say you don't support Hamas but you do exactly what Hamas wants you to do.

Funny thing, Loren, if you actually read Hamas’ own strategy, they want people like you. They rely on defenders of Israel to label every critic as Hamas-aligned, because it proves their point to Palestinians that the world won’t ever care about their civilians. Every time you erase civilian deaths with this lazy ‘you’re helping Hamas’ line, you’re literally running Hamas’ playbook for them. Even Netanyahu doesn’t pull the stunt you’re pulling. He admits civilians are dying, he frames the fight as against Hamas not all Palestinians, and he occasionally tries to separate sympathy for civilians from support for Hamas. If you really want to deny Hamas propaganda fuel, maybe take notes from him instead of running the extremist script where every critic magically becomes a Hamas supporter.
I do not see how you think my actions help Hamas.

And we know civilians are dying, why do you keep bringing it up? What you are missing is that dying civilians is a deliberate Hamas tactic. You get more of what you reward and you are rewarding civilian deaths.
 
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