Immigrant Concentration Camps

[angelo]

So the whole ICE is to be blamed and castigated for the mistake of one or two individuals? Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone!

1) Employers are responsible for improper acts of their employees.

2) This is far from the only wrongdoing on their part. When you see enough bits of rot figure the whole thing is rotten.

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

 

[Patooka]

So the whole ICE is to be blamed and castigated for the mistake of one or two individuals? Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone!

1) Employers are responsible for improper acts of their employees.

2) This is far from the only wrongdoing on their part. When you see enough bits of rot figure the whole thing is rotten.

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

The space unicorns from the planet Galaxia would stop them. Prove me wrong. Imaginary hypotheticals are fun!

In all seriousness, what would most likely happen is a despotic ruler would somehow find themselves inundated with funds and military aid, overthrow the government and prop up a pro-US regime in Mexico and particularly Central America. Just a hunch.

 

[angelo]

The borderless world you dream of is just that! A horrible dream that's in reality a nightmare.

 

[Jarhyn]

So the whole ICE is to be blamed and castigated for the mistake of one or two individuals? Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone!

1) Employers are responsible for improper acts of their employees.

2) This is far from the only wrongdoing on their part. When you see enough bits of rot figure the whole thing is rotten.

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

I'm a big fan of hypotheticals where they are useful or on topic for exploring the applications of an expressed or implied principle. For instance where we explored whether you were capable of actually taking a stand as making any commitments at all against behavior that you would Reject your God-king Emperor for.

But this doesn't fit that mould. Why would hundreds of thousands leave except to escape a fascist nation at this point... In which case they wouldn't be illegally entering, they would be refugees and asylum seekers. What I would EXPECT to happen is they be welcomed by the largely Catholic nations of South and Central America as the Bible instructs: with love and open arms, to be treated same as citizens, so long as they pass their background checks.

 

[laughing dog]

So the whole ICE is to be blamed and castigated for the mistake of one or two individuals? Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone!

1) Employers are responsible for improper acts of their employees.

2) This is far from the only wrongdoing on their part. When you see enough bits of rot figure the whole thing is rotten.

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

What Mexico might do if the situations were reversed is immaterial to how the USA ought to react.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So the whole ICE is to be blamed and castigated for the mistake of one or two individuals? Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone!

1) Employers are responsible for improper acts of their employees.

2) This is far from the only wrongdoing on their part. When you see enough bits of rot figure the whole thing is rotten.

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

The issue is the abusive conditions.

 

[RavenSky]

If compensation has to be paid to every person ever wrongly arrested, no mater how trivial the matter, it would cost taxpayers billions which could be used for far more useful purposes, like housing genuine homeless and destitute American legal citizens.

Does that apply if being wrongly arrested is for someone on your side?

"Or we could just stop arresting people and imprisoning them unlawfully without due process" seems a good alternative, too. It's not a trivial manner to get abducted and put in a concentration camp for "walking north while brown".

And he was held for weeks without even a phone call (which even mass murderers are allowed to have), and held for nearly a month total in spite of border patrol having all of his documents from day one.

Also important to note - this happened 90 miles from the border. He wasn't in Mexico. He was in Texas (where he lives) and simply traveling north for a school function.

 

[RavenSky]

If compensation has to be paid to every person ever wrongly arrested, no mater how trivial the matter, it would cost taxpayers billions which could be used for far more useful purposes, like housing genuine homeless and destitute American legal citizens.

Alternately, law enforcement would be a lot more careful about arrest first and ask questions later.

However, in this situation I don't think he is owed any compensation because of the false documents. Even though he wasn't illegal neither was he arrested for no fault of his own.

He did not have any false documents.

 

[RavenSky]

Horsecrap. ICE are constitutionally prohibited from demanding his documents in the first place. Therefore there cannot be any wrongdoing on his part by presenting them with anything, or nothing - no matter how misleading it might be to them.

Documents that you are not allowed to examine cannot be 'false' in any reasonable sense.

What false documents? I haven't heard anything about his documents being false.

I don't know all the details but he did have some false stuff--his mother trying to hide her illegal status.

wrong

 

[RavenSky]

"Or we could just stop arresting people and imprisoning them unlawfully without due process" seems a good alternative, too. It's not a trivial manner to get abducted and put in a concentration camp for "walking north while brown".

You just don't get it do you? WTF does colour or race has to do with anything? These people are trying to enter another sovereign country illegally! What would you suggest the authorities should do, chaffour them in limos to wherever they want to go and perhaps handed a satchel full of money?

A U.S. citizen can not be "entering another sovereign country illegally" while driving through Texas

 

[RavenSky]

I don't know all the details but he did have some false stuff--his mother trying to hide her illegal status.

From what I have read he did not have anything of the sort. The ICE agents who arrested him claimed he had forged documents because they did not believe he was a US citizen, so did not accept his identification as being legitimate, when in fact it was. I am not sure what his mother's immigration status has to do with anything.

He was carrying his state ID, a Social Security card and a wallet-sized birth certificate. Authorities CLAIM there was also a Mexican tourist VISA that erroneously listed his birth place as Mexico, but authorities also LIED that he never told them he was a U.S. citizen even though their own paperwork show that he did.

They said from the first second they assumed his state ID, a Social Security card and a wallet-sized birth certificate were all forgeries.

 

[RavenSky]

Let he/she who is without sin cast the first stone!

So ICE should never arrest anyone.

People doing their jobs to the best of their abilities should not be crucified because of minor mistake from either side.

This was not a minor mistake. Eight people (most of them children) dying in ICE custody are not minor mistakes. And this doesn't even included all of the other horrific things happening in those concentration camps.

 

[RavenSky]

A prohibition on demanding documents does not prohibit examining offered documents.

But causes don't follow effects. Your point was that these documents amount to exoneration for ICE for wrongfully detaining a US citizen. As they were offered AFTER he was detained, they cannot possibly have been part of the reason he was detained, and so they cannot affect his right to compensation for having been unlawfully detained.

More info on this: Turns out the documents were not presented, but rather were already in the system. Specifically, an incorrect visa application made by the mother years ago.

It still doesn't change my position that he doesn't deserve compensation for being detained as his mother did play a role in causing the situation. However, I do think he deserves a fair amount of compensation for the conditions under which he was detained.

So you immediately assume that border patrol is telling the truth even though they flat out LIED by claiming that the young man never told them he was a U.S. citizen, when their own paperwork proved they were lying? And you immediately assume that his mother screwed up to get a Mexican VISA with wrong information... IF such a document really even exists "in the system". It couldn't possibly be (1) a lie by border patrol just like they provably lied about other aspects of this situation, or (2) that some U.S. official made a mistake.

Moreover, why would his mother even make an application for a Mexican VISA unless her son was a U.S. citizen? So ever IF we want to pretend that border patrol is telling the truth and right-wing media has a point about a birthplace error on this alleged application for a Mexican VISA, her son would still have had to be a U.S. citizen to make the application at all.

If I was born in France, then became a U.S. citizen, I'd still be a U.S. citizen for purposes of a Mexican VISA regardless where I was born.

 

[RavenSky]

in March of this year, 9-year-old Julia Medina was detained by CBP for 32 hours despite her being a U.S. citizen.

Though she's an American, Medina's family lives in Tijuana, and they cross the border each morning to get to school. On a Monday morning, CBP detained her and her 14-year-old brother, Oscar, saying she didn't look like the photo in her passport, according to NBC San Diego. CBP said the elementary student, who was questioned without her parents present, "provided inconsistent information during her inspection." The agency reportedly had no explanation for why it took 32 hours to confirm her citizenship and release her, though in that time they accused her brother, who is also a U.S. citizen, of human smuggling and tried to have him sign a document saying his sister was his cousin. Medina was finally released after her mother pleaded with the Mexican consulate to contact U.S. immigration authorities.

In all of these cases, Galicia, Brown, and Medina had paperwork on them that proved they were U.S. citizens when they were apprehended. But clearly that wasn't enough to prevent detention by an administration that views non-white people as suspicious. If a passport isn't enough to prove citizenship, it's not clear what people can do to avoid getting detained by ICE or CBP.

https://www.gq.com/story/border-patrol-detained-9-year-old-american-girl

 

[ZiprHead]

Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency

Customs and Border Protection is the nation's largest law enforcement agency, with 45,000 gun-carrying officers and agents. That's larger than the NYPD. It's larger than the Coast Guard. And yet at the same time, it has been wracked by what is now really more than a decade of an epidemic of crime, and corruption and mismanagement that is unparalleled in American policing. From 2005 to 2012, there was one CBP officer or agent arrested every single day. And even today, there's an officer or agent arrested for misconduct or violence, drug smuggling, even murder, every 36 hours.

One former CBP commissioner actually told me on the record that they made mistakes and, in fact, hired cartel members. And what you began to see by late 2009, running through 2014, was both a huge rise in on-the-job excessive force complaints, shootings that fell far outside the protocols for modern policing, and also this incredible wave of crime and corruption of agents participating in drug smuggling and human trafficking themselves, of taking bribes, of looking past illegal immigrants crossing through their checkpoints.

Yup, these are just wonderful people.

 

[bilby]

Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency

Customs and Border Protection is the nation's largest law enforcement agency, with 45,000 gun-carrying officers and agents. That's larger than the NYPD. It's larger than the Coast Guard. And yet at the same time, it has been wracked by what is now really more than a decade of an epidemic of crime, and corruption and mismanagement that is unparalleled in American policing. From 2005 to 2012, there was one CBP officer or agent arrested every single day. And even today, there's an officer or agent arrested for misconduct or violence, drug smuggling, even murder, every 36 hours.

One former CBP commissioner actually told me on the record that they made mistakes and, in fact, hired cartel members. And what you began to see by late 2009, running through 2014, was both a huge rise in on-the-job excessive force complaints, shootings that fell far outside the protocols for modern policing, and also this incredible wave of crime and corruption of agents participating in drug smuggling and human trafficking themselves, of taking bribes, of looking past illegal immigrants crossing through their checkpoints.

Yup, these are just wonderful people.

It's inevitable, when you have a force specifically tasked with a politically controversial role, that those who seek to become recruits will be self-selected from the subsets of the population who either have a highly authoritarian response to that political controversy (ie political extremists), or who see an opportunity for corruption and abuse (ie criminals and sadists).

This is a fundamental issue for any police or military organisation, but it's far worse where that organisation has a very specific and politically controversial role, and where recruitment isn't explicitly and meticulously focussed on finding and rejecting any applicants with a hint of corruption or corruptibility.

One solution that, while less slow and expensive than meticulous vetting, is still moderately effective in keeping the cops honest, is to avoid specialisation and siloisation. It's harder for the traffic department to take bribes to waive tickets, if they share an office with forensics officers who will blow the whistle on their schemes - and likewise the forensics team are less able to collude to make evidence disappear, if the traffic cops are keeping an eye on them.

The 'who guards the guards' problem can be severely exacerbated by having a single purpose and single culture, isolated from the rest of enforcement (a similar effect allows corruption to become ingrained in the small, independent, police departments that are endemic in the US).

Far better to cut the number of enforcement agencies. The US could easily have fewer than fifty police and enforcement agencies: Roll all forces below the state level (city, county, and other departments such as campus and mall cops) into a single state police department, with shared resources and staff. For some lower population states, you could even combine two or more state forces into a single department (eg. one PD for Minnesota and the Dakotas). The ATF, FBI, ICE, CBP and the Secret Service can all be rolled into a single Federal Police.

That would help a lot. Currently, there are a total of 17,985 local and state law enforcement agencies in the United States that employ at least one permanent sworn officer. Of these, 12,501 are local police departments. (source)

Another good move would be a return to the Peelian Principles on which modern policing was founded.

Of course none of this will ever happen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know all the details but he did have some false stuff--his mother trying to hide her illegal status.

From what I have read he did not have anything of the sort. The ICE agents who arrested him claimed he had forged documents because they did not believe he was a US citizen, so did not accept his identification as being legitimate, when in fact it was. I am not sure what his mother's immigration status has to do with anything.

He was carrying his state ID, a Social Security card and a wallet-sized birth certificate. Authorities CLAIM there was also a Mexican tourist VISA that erroneously listed his birth place as Mexico, but authorities also LIED that he never told them he was a U.S. citizen even though their own paperwork show that he did.

They said from the first second they assumed his state ID, a Social Security card and a wallet-sized birth certificate were all forgeries.

Since they had the visa application saying he was born in Mexico it would be reasonable to figure the conflicting documents were forgeries. The problem is that they didn't try to check.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you immediately assume that border patrol is telling the truth even though they flat out LIED by claiming that the young man never told them he was a U.S. citizen, when their own paperwork proved they were lying? And you immediately assume that his mother screwed up to get a Mexican VISA with wrong information... IF such a document really even exists "in the system". It couldn't possibly be (1) a lie by border patrol just like they provably lied about other aspects of this situation, or (2) that some U.S. official made a mistake.

Moreover, why would his mother even make an application for a Mexican VISA unless her son was a U.S. citizen? So ever IF we want to pretend that border patrol is telling the truth and right-wing media has a point about a birthplace error on this alleged application for a Mexican VISA, her son would still have had to be a U.S. citizen to make the application at all.

If I was born in France, then became a U.S. citizen, I'd still be a U.S. citizen for purposes of a Mexican VISA regardless where I was born.

I'm not assuming they're telling the truth.

It doesn't matter whether he said he was a citizen. They're not going to release him just because of that.

And I think the visa bit is probably true as it was explained as her attempting to hide her illegal status, rather than a denial. When both side agree on something it's probably true.

 

[angelo]

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

What Mexico might do if the situations were reversed is immaterial to how the USA ought to react.

Throw open the borders to one and all and be damned with the consequences?

 

[Patooka]

What do you think would happen if the position was reversed and it was hundreds of thousands of US citizens trying to enter illegally into Mexico and particularly into central America?

What Mexico might do if the situations were reversed is immaterial to how the USA ought to react.

Throw open the borders to one and all and be damned with the consequences?

Out of curiosity, how many times do you need to be told there are more options available than either 1)open borders or 2)concentration camps? An honest attempt at processing asylum seekers for example? Treating immigrants the same way the Republicans did during the 1980's perhaps? A fair US citizenship test that has an emphasis on how the migrant can contribute instead how many millions they have or how the modelling career is?

But more importantly, How. Many. Fucking. Times. are you going to push forth the bullshit "It's either Trump's way or open borders" dichotomy? Because, I'll let you in on a dirty little secret that only myself and a handful of people around the world know about. There is more than two options available in dealing with immigration.