Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Toni]

TomC noted the officer showed bad judgment. For whatever reason he wants to put some blame on the victim too.

True.
But not much. He was 14, I don't expect kids to be responsible for much.
He had parents. That's how it works.

They're really responsible for Tamir's behavior. It was extremely dangerous and he was killed by a cop who knew far less about the situation.

Where were they when their child was in such danger?
Tom

Tamir Rice was 12 years old when he was gunned down by two adult police officers while he was playing in the park.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

TomC noted the officer showed bad judgment. For whatever reason he wants to put some blame on the victim too.

True.
But not much. He was 14, I don't expect kids to be responsible for much.
He had parents. That's how it works.

They're really responsible for Tamir's behavior. It was extremely dangerous and he was killed by a cop who knew far less about the situation.

Where were they when their child was in such danger?
Tom

Tamir Rice was 12 years old when he was gunned down by two adult police officers while he was playing in the park.

One officer. The other guy probably didn't have enough time to get out of the car before the bullets were fired.

 

[Toni]

TomC noted the officer showed bad judgment. For whatever reason he wants to put some blame on the victim too.

True.
But not much. He was 14, I don't expect kids to be responsible for much.
He had parents. That's how it works.

They're really responsible for Tamir's behavior. It was extremely dangerous and he was killed by a cop who knew far less about the situation.

Where were they when their child was in such danger?
Tom

I know you do not have children of your own but at 12 years of age, my kids were allowed to walk to the homes of friends, to school, to the library, to any of the parks in town, to the movie theater, grocery store, convenience store, or to the video store because we still had those when my kids were kids.

I’m willing to bet that you had similar freedoms when you were 12. I did and my parents were absolutely the strictest parents around.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

TomC noted the officer showed bad judgment. For whatever reason he wants to put some blame on the victim too.

True.
But not much. He was 14, I don't expect kids to be responsible for much.
He had parents. That's how it works.

They're really responsible for Tamir's behavior. It was extremely dangerous and he was killed by a cop who knew far less about the situation.

Where were they when their child was in such danger?
Tom

I know you do not have children of your own but at 12 years of age, my kids were allowed to walk to the homes of friends, to school, to the library, to any of the parks in town, to the movie theater, grocery store, convenience store, or to the video store because we still had those when my kids were kids.

I’m willing to bet that you had similar freedoms when you were 12. I did and my parents were absolutely the strictest parents around.

I believe TomC has children (am I the only one that reads the IIDB newsletter? ). And I'm certain anything they did wrong was always his fault.

 

[Toni]

TomC noted the officer showed bad judgment. For whatever reason he wants to put some blame on the victim too.

True.
But not much. He was 14, I don't expect kids to be responsible for much.
He had parents. That's how it works.

They're really responsible for Tamir's behavior. It was extremely dangerous and he was killed by a cop who knew far less about the situation.

Where were they when their child was in such danger?
Tom

I know you do not have children of your own but at 12 years of age, my kids were allowed to walk to the homes of friends, to school, to the library, to any of the parks in town, to the movie theater, grocery store, convenience store, or to the video store because we still had those when my kids were kids.

I’m willing to bet that you had similar freedoms when you were 12. I did and my parents were absolutely the strictest parents around.

I believe TomC has children (am I the only one that reads the IIDB newsletter? ). And I'm certain anything they did wrong was always his fault.

Maybe. I think it’s step children—I was under the impression he and his partner didn’t get together until the kids were grown. My sincere apologies if I am mistaken.

 

[marc]

What ever happened to the “Hogan’s Alley”? You know, the police training where they would walk through an area, and panels would pop out either showing an armed criminal or non threatening civilian. The goal being to NOT shoot the civilians, and shoot the criminals in a reasonable amount of time. Train their threat assessment reaction.

also little things like teaching them to yell “Freeze!” “Hands in the air” “drop the weapon”, and, ya know, give them more than 0.3 seconds to react.

 

[TV and credit cards]

This is a pretty good article. The "here's my card" thing aside, how big of an "Aw shit" does one have to commit to wipe out a lifetime of "attaboys"?

Body cam catches elite federal prosecutor offering Justice Department card during DUI crash arrest

Body-camera video obtained by the AP shows one of the nation's most prolific federal drug prosecutors offering police his business card in an apparent attempt to leverage his position to blunt the fallout from a Fourth of July crash in which he is accused of striking another vehicle and leaving.

apnews.com

Ruddy is known in law enforcement circles as one of the architects of Operation Panama Express, or PANEX — a task force launched in 2000 to target cocaine smuggling at sea, combining resources from the U.S. Coast Guard, FBI, Drug Enforcement Administration, and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Historically, PANEX-generated intelligence contributes to more than 90% of U.S. Coast Guard drug interdictions at sea. Between 2018 and 2022, the Coast Guard removed or destroyed 888 metric tons of cocaine worth an estimated $26 billion and detained 2,776 suspected smugglers, a senior Coast Guard official said in congressional testimony in March. The bulk of those cases were handled by Ruddy and his colleagues in Tampa, where PANEX is headquartered.

A former Ironman triathlete, Ruddy enjoys a reputation among attorneys for hard work and toughness in the courtroom. Among his biggest cases were some of the early extraditions from Colombia of top smugglers for the feared Cali cartel.

 

[Shadowy Man]

also little things like teaching them to yell “Freeze!” “Hands in the air” “drop the weapon”, and, ya know, give them more than 0.3 seconds to react.

It seems the counterargument is that this is too high a risk for the police officers. Their lives are more important than those of the civilians they protect, especially all the scumbag perps everyone is likely to be.

 

[ZiprHead]

Lorain police: Officer's use of deadly force against dog deemed reasonable

'Officer Palmer had reasonable cause to believe that the dog was going to attack him.'

www.wkyc.com

LORAIN, Ohio — Just more than two months after an officer fatally shot a dog, Lorain police officials held a press conference to announce that Officer Elliott Palmer had reasonable cause to use deadly police force against the animal.
During the press conference, Lorain Police Chief James McCann revealed that Palmer was previously bitten by a dog on April 8, less than 90 days before this incident. Palmer was told from that incident that he could possibly lose his hand.

“Officer Palmer had reasonable cause to believe that the dog was going to attack him. Through this investigation, the dog charged him and caused Officer Palmer to fear for his safety. Upon entering his cruiser, Officer Palmer was forced to make a split-second decision, which was likely influenced by his previous dog bite. Officer Palmer’s actions were consistent with what another officer would do in this situation,” said McCann.
However, the investigation did reveal that Officer Palmer had a body camera violation as he did not turn it on right away.

Video in the link. Conclusion: cowardly cop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I expect police to refrain from shooting someone until they are under an actual threat. Tamir Rice posed no actual threat EVEN IF HE HAD A REAL FIREARM. He did not "pull it out" nor did he aim it at the police. Those trigger happy cowards jumped out of their vehicle, hid behind it, shouted drop the gun and immediately started firing before any human being could have responded to their command.

You still haven't explained how to determine that a threat is actual.

You haven't explained how to determine whether a threat is actual. I agree that killing someone is one method to determine a threat is actual but it seems a bit excessive to me. But, it you had read my actual response, you'd have seen that there was at least a hint - acting in a manner that is an unmistakable threat.

In the case of Tamir Rice, the police made no attempt to determine whether there was an actual threat or not.

Are you a Republican? Because you're asking me to answer your problem. You are expecting the police to reliably figure out who is an actual threat but are presenting no realistic method by which they can do so.

Really??? They couldn't stay back aways and observe TR from a distance? Do you really not posess an imagination?

And actually do their jobs? No.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just exactly how does this sort of criticism of cops bother you?

The degree to which people use cops as scapegoats. Blame them for every bad thing that happens in a citizen/cop interaction. Ignore the 10,000,000 cop/citizen interactions that don't result in violence, and the 900 justifiable ones that do, and get all ragey about the 100 ones that might be bad cops but might be misreported...
And get rid of the good cops by lumping them in. And then get out in the streets chanting "Dead Cops!"

All that, for starters.
Tom

I've repeatedly said that the real problem isn't the shootings, but the lesser violence. Shootings are almost always justified, lesser violence we generally don't hear about until it goes spectacularly wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I expect police to refrain from shooting someone until they are under an actual threat. Tamir Rice posed no actual threat EVEN IF HE HAD A REAL FIREARM. He did not "pull it out" nor did he aim it at the police. Those trigger happy cowards jumped out of their vehicle, hid behind it, shouted drop the gun and immediately started firing before any human being could have responded to their command.

You still haven't explained how to determine that a threat is actual.

You haven't explained how to determine whether a threat is actual. I agree that killing someone is one method to determine a threat is actual but it seems a bit excessive to me. But, it you had read my actual response, you'd have seen that there was at least a hint - acting in a manner that is an unmistakable threat.

In the case of Tamir Rice, the police made no attempt to determine whether there was an actual threat or not.

Are you a Republican? Because you're asking me to answer your problem. You are expecting the police to reliably figure out who is an actual threat but are presenting no realistic method by which they can do so.

Stop babbling straw men and misrepresenting the content of my posts. Apparently the term “Unmistakable threat” is a less reliable assessment of threat in your view than “kill anyone who makes me wet my shorts”. I think you are very wrong.

In the real world things aren't so black and white. "Unmistakable threat" means the cop gets shot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What ever happened to the “Hogan’s Alley”? You know, the police training where they would walk through an area, and panels would pop out either showing an armed criminal or non threatening civilian. The goal being to NOT shoot the civilians, and shoot the criminals in a reasonable amount of time. Train their threat assessment reaction.

also little things like teaching them to yell “Freeze!” “Hands in the air” “drop the weapon”, and, ya know, give them more than 0.3 seconds to react.

AFIAK, replaced with more realistic video systems. While I've never seen a real Hogan's Alley the stuff I've seen on TV has always had very easy to distinguish targets.

The problem is that the world can't quickly be divided up into criminals and innocents. There will always be cases where it's not easy to evaluate. There are also cases where the guy is trying to dispose of the gun but the first act of disposing of it is to draw it--and human reaction time is not sufficient to wait to the point where the two cases can be distinguished and yet act in time if it's draw-to-shoot.

 

[laughing dog]

In the real world things aren't so black and white.

Then why do the police have to start shooting so fast according to you?

"Unmistakable threat" means the cop gets shot.

What absolute crapola. Certainly in the case of Tamir Rice, your observation is utter nonsense, since Tamir Rice's "weapon" had no bullets.

In order to take your claim seriously, one would have to believe that suspects are better shots than the police.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Just exactly how does this sort of criticism of cops bother you?

The degree to which people use cops as scapegoats. Blame them for every bad thing that happens in a citizen/cop interaction. Ignore the 10,000,000 cop/citizen interactions that don't result in violence, and the 900 justifiable ones that do, and get all ragey about the 100 ones that might be bad cops but might be misreported...
And get rid of the good cops by lumping them in. And then get out in the streets chanting "Dead Cops!"

All that, for starters.
Tom

I've repeatedly said that the real problem isn't the shootings, but the lesser violence. Shootings are almost always justified, lesser violence we generally don't hear about until it goes spectacularly wrong.

So, then what actions are police departments taking to reduce this lesser violence. What policies are politicians presenting to do so? It generally seems to me that the police and the republicans who claim to support them are doing nothing to that end. But perhaps I’m just unfamiliar with what’s going on.

 

[Elixir]

So, then what actions are police departments taking to reduce this lesser violence.

None whatsoever. Boys will be boys - gotta let them have their fun.

What policies are politicians presenting to do so?

None whatsoever. Politicians can't make hay very effectively out of window breakers.

It generally seems to me that the police and the republicans who claim to support them are doing nothing to that end.

Of course police aren't up for doing anything - most of them are scared shitless that someone might do something.

I wonder how many cops Loren knows personally. I dealt with hundreds of them over a 12 year period. Mostly police chiefs and acquisition people.

Circa 2014 I got a call from a very nice guy named Jon Belmar. He was the Captain of the St Louis County police, an outfit that was embroiled in scandals over shooting (black) people (e.g. Michael Brown). He was shopping medical supplies for his officers, all of whom were feeling "under threat" because of the backlash against the officer who shot Mr. Brown (an 18 yr old black male). A witness who was with the Brown at the time, said Brown had his hands up when Wilson opened fire. Protests were raging nightly and it was national news.
Anyhow, Captain Belmar was distraught about his officers' reputation, the besieged feeling pervading his department, and his prospects for keeping his own job (he did remain at least until around 2019), but NEVER ONCE did I hear him evince any concern for the victim, the victim's family or the citizens he was charged to protect. It was always about the brave innocent officers, and he was their champion, defending them all from the evil public outcry.
Seriously, a very nice guy with all the best intentions toward his men, and a great deal of power and authority.
That's where evil flourishes. IME.

 

[Arctish]

Really??? They couldn't stay back aways and observe TR from a distance? Do you really not posess an imagination?

And actually do their jobs? No.

Thank you for finally answering my question.

I have been asking you for three years to clarify whether you believe Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer and Deputy Chief of Field Operations Ed Tomba were trying to provide cover for Officers Garmbeck and Loehmann when they told these lies, or if you believe they were saying Garmbeck and Loehmann were screw-ups:

A rookie officer and a 10-15 year veteran pulled into the parking lot and saw a few people sitting underneath a pavilion next to the center. The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table, and he saw the boy pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer said.

The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said.

Finally, you have answered the question clearly. You think Follmer and Tomba were saying Garmbeck and Loehmann were not actually doing their jobs. You think they were lying in order to cast aspersions on the character of those two officers.

I think they were trying to provide cover. They were saying Garmbeck and Loehmann assessed the situation, correctly identified the suspect, attempted to approach with all due caution, and only used deadly force when Rice appeared to be preparing to shoot. Lies to be sure, but lies indicating Garmbeck and Loehmann were following proper procedures, not just gunning down citizens without even giving them a chance to surrender.

 

[ZiprHead]

A heinous crime.

 

[thebeave]

That's pretty ruff.

 

[ZiprHead]

It would certainly make me growl.