Trump confirms plan to declare national emergency and use military for deportations

[bilby]

What is illogical is conflating any support on restrictions on immigration or for deporting more illegals is "xenophobia".

Not at all. Xenophobia is the fear or dislike of foreigners.

What are immigration restrictions or deportations, other than a response to the fear or dislike of foreigners?

The whole existence of border controls is xenophobia by definition. It's the claim that these total strangers are OK, because they are American, while those total strangers are not because they are not American.

There is literally no way to differentiate between the people who can be deported and those who cannot, other than their status as foreigners; A non-foreigner who commits a crime can be jailed, even executed, but he cannot be thrown out of the country. A non-foreigner who wants a job can take one; But a foreigner cannot.

That's xenophobia, by definition.

What we should be debating is whether, and to what extent, xenophobia is acceptable and justified. When can, and when should, we have different rules for "them" than those that apply to "us"; And why?

But let us not pretend that it's not xenophobia. It is.

Even if we like to imagine ourselves not to be xenophobic, we nevertheless are. We should admit it to ourselves, lest our dissonance leads us into the making of unjust law.

 

[bilby]

Can you elaborate about how/why this is a problem?

You seriously do not think that millions of mass migrants entering through our southern border is a problem?

So, that's "No, I cannot elaborate" then.

Again, I'm being serious. I want to understand it from your perspective.

I do not see that the point is that hard to understand.

Then explain it. Should be easy, right?

And even if you don't agree, it mattered to a lot of people.

So what? The virgin birth mattered to a lot of people. Doesn't make it rational, reasonable, or true.

 

[Toni]

Can you elaborate about how/why this is a problem?

You seriously do not think that millions of mass migrants entering through our southern border is a problem?

Again, I'm being serious. I want to understand it from your perspective.

I do not see that the point is that hard to understand. And even if you don't agree, it mattered to a lot of people. Enough that Harris lost bigly and dragged several others (e.g. Bob Casey, Sherrod Brown) with her.
Most Dem candidates for 2020 (including Kamala, but not Biden, who seems to have been confused by the question) for example raised their hand in support of decriminalizing illegal border crossings.

The disastrous pre-Pandemic portion of the 2020 primary season really came back at the Dems like a boomerang. It was not just immigration, of course, but it was a big piece of the puzzle.

Yes, yes, yes: I know that it mattered to a lot of people.

I know of some of the potential problems but I am genuinely asking what YOUR opinion the issues are. Largely because I know you and I see many things differently.

So could you please tell me what YOU think the problems/potential problems are?

 

[Derec]

Not at all. Xenophobia is the fear or dislike of foreigners.
What are immigration restrictions or deportations, other than a response to the fear or dislike of foreigners?
The whole existence of border controls is xenophobia by definition

So everything but open borders is "xenopobia" to you?
I completely disagree. Existence of borders and restrictions of who is let in and how many is essential to having a functioning country.
Just like a cytoplasmic membrane is essential to having a functioning cell. The moment the plasma membrane breaks down, the cell lyses and dies.

Even if we like to imagine ourselves not to be xenophobic, we nevertheless are.

If you label completely normal things as phobias, you give refuge to real xenophobes, as you no longer can differentiale them from anybody but the small minority of "no borders" extremists. Same with racism. If almost everything is deemed racist, then real racism hides in that haystack. Same with misogyny, homophobia, transphobia. All of those things have been corrupted by overeager activist types such that they have become virtually meaningless.

 

[Derec]

So what? The virgin birth mattered to a lot of people. Doesn't make it rational, reasonable, or true.

Neither is your "open borders" stance.

 

[Toni]

What is illogical is conflating any support on restrictions on immigration or for deporting more illegals is "xenophobia".

Not at all. Xenophobia is the fear or dislike of foreigners.

What are immigration restrictions or deportations, other than a response to the fear or dislike of foreigners?

The whole existence of border controls is xenophobia by definition. It's the claim that these total strangers are OK, because they are American, while those total strangers are not because they are not American.

There is literally no way to differentiate between the people who can be deported and those who cannot, other than their status as foreigners; A non-foreigner who commits a crime can be jailed, even executed, but he cannot be thrown out of the country. A non-foreigner who wants a job can take one; But a foreigner cannot.

That's xenophobia, by definition.

What we should be debating is whether, and to what extent, xenophobia is acceptable and justified. When can, and when should, we have different rules for "them" than those that apply to "us"; And why?

But let us not pretend that it's not xenophobia. It is.

Even if we like to imagine ourselves not to be xenophobic, we nevertheless are. We should admit it to ourselves, lest our dissonance leads us into the making of unjust law.

OTOH, I can think of a number of prominent US citizens who are immigrants and at least one who deliberately and immediately violated the terms of his visa that I would like to see deported immediately. That's not me being xenophobic: that's me looking at a way to get rid of highly undesirable people who have been and continue to be highly disruptive of the functioning of the US as a nation and as a democracy. I just think that it is more likely that they be deported under this furor over deporting undesirables.

 

[Derec]

Where "any support for restrictions on immigration" is meant to be understood as "declaring a national emergency and using the military to illegally deport millions of people"?

No. It's a reaction to bilby's attitude that anything less than open borders is "xenophobia".

 

[Derec]

OTOH, I can think of a number of prominent US citizens who are immigrants and at least one who deliberately and immediately violated the terms of his visa that I would like to see deported immediately.

Who, for example?

That's not me being xenophobic:

According to bilby, you are "xenophobic" unless you want everybody to be able to immigrate in any numbers.

 

[Derec]

This is a case of face-eating leopards. The Republicans have for a long time been starving the immigration service, slowing immigration by adding years of processing wait. Oops, now it's the other way around, that delay means they can't process asylum claims.

I agree that we should fund immigration services.
I disagree that people intercepted at the border should be just let in. Especially since asylum is so easy to claim, and illegals have caught on to the fact that saying "asylum" is an easy way to be let into the country. And once they are in, it's difficult to deport them.
The murderer of Laken Riley, José Ibarra, was intercepted by border patrol, but they let him into the country.

Say what you will about Trump (and you can say a lot of bad things), but "remain in Mexico" was sound policy. It removed the incentive of easy entry into the US, and it furthermore incentivized Mexico to better police their southern border. Without the "remain in Mexico", Mexico is just going to wave the migrants through, maybe even organize buses for them, because they are just passing through and not really their problem.

 

[Derec]

The funny thing is, TSwizzle clearly knows exactly why he's unlikely to be caught up in an ICE raid.

 

[Derec]

Only for lying on the citizenship application. That's not what The Felon is after.

The point is that INS should have vetted her better and discovered that Rasmea Odeh is a PFLP terrorist.
She should have been deemed ineligible for even a tourist visa with her background and criminal record.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, I can only imagine President Trump doing absolutely nothing about it on Day One.

He is horrible at follow-through. Even when he killed Qassam Soleimani, he didn't follow up with any real action to degrade IRGC as an organization.

 

[Derec]

Let me get this straight - you want prospective immigrants to pass some sort of political views test?

That is not unprecedented.
Chapter 7 - Attachment to the Constitution

1. Communist Party Affiliation
An applicant cannot naturalize if any of the following are true within 10 years immediately preceding his or her filing for naturalization and up until the time of the Oath of Allegiance:

The applicant is or has been a member of or affiliated with the Communist Party or any other totalitarian party;

The applicant is or has advocated communism or the establishment in the United States of a totalitarian dictatorship;

The applicant is or has been a member of or affiliated with an organization that advocates communism or the establishment in the United States of a totalitarian dictatorship, either through its own utterance or through any written or printed matter published by such organization;

The applicant is or has been a subversive, or a member of, or affiliated with, a subversive organization;

The applicant is knowingly publishing or has published any subversive written or printed matter, or written or printed matter advocating communism;

The applicant is knowingly circulating or has circulated, or knowingly possesses or has possessed for the purpose of circulating, subversive written or printed matter, or written or printed matter advocating communism; or

The applicant is or has been a member of, or affiliated with, any organization that publishes or circulates, or that possesses for the purpose of publishing or circulating, any subversive written or printed matter, or any written or printed matter advocating communism.

Or this:

3. Nazi Party Affiliation
Applicants who were affiliated with the Nazi government of Germany or any government occupied by or allied with the Nazi government of Germany, either directly or indirectly, are ineligible for admission into the United States and permanently barred from naturalization.[21] The applicant is responsible for providing any evidence or documentation to support a claim that he or she is not ineligible for naturalization based on involvement in the Nazi Party.

Why should Islamofascists be treated any differently?
Especially when they were allies in Hitler's day:

 

[Derec]

That's not my logic.

My bad. You want them all to be let in even if they are islamofascists and no matter how many show up.
Because anything else is "xenophobia".

 

[bilby]

So everything but open borders is "xenopobia" to you?

No.

Everything but open borders is xenophobia by definition - that is a dieect consequence of the meaning of the word.

Your false belief that this is necessarily a pejorative is blinding you to this obvious fact.

I completely disagree.

Reality doesn't demand, nor care about, your agreement.

 

[Derec]

Everything but open borders is xenophobia by definition

Show me that definition.

 

[bilby]

Existence of borders and restrictions of who is let in and how many is essential to having a functioning country.

That's a fair justification for xenophobia, if (and to the extent that) you can back it with facts.

Just like a cytoplasmic membrane is essential to having a functioning cell. The moment the plasma membrane breaks down, the cell lyses and dies.

That's a poor metaphor.

 

[bilby]

If you label completely normal things as phobias, you give refuge to real xenophobes, as you no longer can differentiale them from anybody but the small minority of "no borders" extremists. Same with racism. If almost everything is deemed racist, then real racism hides in that haystack. Same with misogyny, homophobia, transphobia. All of those things have been corrupted by overeager activist types such that they have become virtually meaningless.

Argument from consequences is a logical fallacy.

 

[Toni]

Not at all. Xenophobia is the fear or dislike of foreigners.
What are immigration restrictions or deportations, other than a response to the fear or dislike of foreigners?
The whole existence of border controls is xenophobia by definition

So everything but open borders is "xenopobia" to you?
I completely disagree. Existence of borders and restrictions of who is let in and how many is essential to having a functioning country.
Just like a cytoplasmic membrane is essential to having a functioning cell. The moment the plasma membrane breaks down, the cell lyses and dies.

Even if we like to imagine ourselves not to be xenophobic, we nevertheless are.

If you label completely normal things as phobias, you give refuge to real xenophobes, as you no longer can differentiale them from anybody but the small minority of "no borders" extremists. Same with racism. If almost everything is deemed racist, then real racism hides in that haystack. Same with misogyny, homophobia, transphobia. All of those things have been corrupted by overeager activist types such that they have become virtually meaningless.

I am irrationally afraid of sharks. I have a phobia a about sharks. I think that is a completely rational fear, even if I live in the Midwest and nowhere near a shark. It's a phobia

 

[bilby]

Everything but open borders is xenophobia by definition

Show me that definition.