Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[bilby]

My own feeling that we are past the point of optimal global human population is not something I suddenly came by, bilby. I recall being no more than six years old ca 1956, reading about human population historical trends, and realizing even then that the growth rate was unsustainable. It has apparently slowed in terms of percentage growth/year, but out numbers are still growing and at a level that, combined with our unwillingness/inability to address the effects we are having on biodiversity, is resulting in a global mass extinction event.

This nonsense I have addressed elsewhere on these boards at considerable length; Suffice to say you were absolutely right to be concerned prior to the 1990s; And have (like most people) failed to change your position to accomodate a changing reality.

 

[Tigers!]

Anyway back to the subject at hand.

What happened to the shooter's grandmother whom he shot first? Cannot find anything in Oz.
Reading about reports about the delays in response.
One of the delays was waiting for a negotiator. Why wait? it is hardly likely that a person like that is going to negotiate.

 

[Playball40]

No doubt but to call a parent trying to save their kid "a fucking idiot" is uncalled for.

ya know... maybe that's part of the problem too.
we have too god damn many children in this country, and we revere them too much.

we can talk about guns, and mental health, and culture, and etc etc... but it's never discussed that maybe if we didn't shit out a squalling bowl full of crotch fruit at every conceivable opportunity, or had some decency and sensible regulation involving who can have kids and when and how they're raised, we would have less dysfunctional psychos with a bad home life and violent emotional problems running around.

disgusting

prideandfall isn't near the top of the list for PTA member of the year and they aren't shying away from that either.

and again, proving my point.

"shit them out so hard and so fast you prolapse your vagina" is the only acceptable narrative one is allowed to have regarding breeding, or else one is slagged as "disgusting" or the actual point is completely ignored for the sake of being cute and snarky.

if our society had a more cautious and considered approach to child-having and child-rearing, it would stop a lot of these sorts of problems at the source: unwell people who take out their unwellness in acts of violence.

I was neither attempting to be cute nor snarky. I find your opinion on the subject absurd and your reference to children as "crotch fruit" disgusting. I get you're attempting to be provocative but it falls as flat and as hard as the "prolapsed vagina" you think you know about.

 

[Elixir]

I'm more inclined to self identify as anti-Woke

You're doing a fair job of that.
You have un-woke mastered at least.

 

[Playball40]

And yet the USSC says that's not true. They are not obligated to 'put their lives at risk to save yours'.

I was not aware of that.

2005 ruling.

WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

 

[Playball40]

Anyway back to the subject at hand.

What happened to the shooter's grandmother whom he shot first? Cannot find anything in Oz.
Reading about reports about the delays in response.
One of the delays was waiting for a negotiator. Why wait? it is hardly likely that a person like that is going to negotiate.

She's in stable condition.

 

[ZiprHead]

"Assault weapons" are really just light hunting rifles that are easy to customize. They're good for lighter game, they're good home defense weapons.

Where did you get that bullshit?

Lighter game? Only if you want it to explode.

 

[prideandfall]

I was neither attempting to be cute nor snarky. I find your opinion on the subject absurd and your reference to children as "crotch fruit" disgusting.

good for you.
i find wild and errant breeding disgusting, so we both have to deal with opinions that other people have that we don't like.

 

[ZiprHead]

I haven't heard cops were waiting outside WHILE shots were being fired inside.

I saw one video of the parents pleading with the police to go in while you could hear the rapid gunfire going off in the school.

 

[Uglyfish]

No doubt but to call a parent trying to save their kid "a fucking idiot" is uncalled for.

ya know... maybe that's part of the problem too.
we have too god damn many children in this country, and we revere them too much.

we can talk about guns, and mental health, and culture, and etc etc... but it's never discussed that maybe if we didn't shit out a squalling bowl full of crotch fruit at every conceivable opportunity, or had some decency and sensible regulation involving who can have kids and when and how they're raised, we would have less dysfunctional psychos with a bad home life and violent emotional problems running around.

disgusting

prideandfall isn't near the top of the list for PTA member of the year and they aren't shying away from that either.

and again, proving my point.

"shit them out so hard and so fast you prolapse your vagina" is the only acceptable narrative one is allowed to have regarding breeding, or else one is slagged as "disgusting" or the actual point is completely ignored for the sake of being cute and snarky.

if our society had a more cautious and considered approach to child-having and child-rearing, it would stop a lot of these sorts of problems at the source: unwell people who take out their unwellness in acts of violence.

I was neither attempting to be cute nor snarky. I find your opinion on the subject absurd and your reference to children as "crotch fruit" disgusting. I get you're attempting to be provocative but it falls as flat and as hard as the "prolapsed vagina" you think you know about.

And here I was thinking prideandfall was being rather generous in calling them "crotch fruit." I call them crotch demons. The sentence would be far more striking as "but it's never discussed that maybe if we didn't shit out a squalling legion of crotch demons at every conceivable opportunity..."

 

[ZiprHead]

Apparently Uvalde does have a SWAT team. Chris Hayes just showed a photo of them on his program.

 

[bilby]

A handgun and rifle are not military weapons.

If they are rapid fire, they are. Sorry. If you cannot "hunt" without a rapid fire magazine, you shouldn't hunt. I'm over trying to be 'reasonable' on this issue.

You appear not to know much about firearms.

In practice the vast majority of firearms have basically the same firing rate. And there is a reason for semi-auto in a hunting weapon--you're less likely to leave behind a wounded animal. If you have a bolt action rifle and don't get a clean hit you have little chance of a second shot.

Virtually all handguns have the same firing rate--single shot handguns are little more common than hen's teeth and to the extent they exist they're basically last resort holdout weapons.

I know plenty about firearms, and even more about their history.

Both handguns and rifles started their existence as military weapons. That was their sole reason to be created.

They were quickly adopted for other uses, including hunting, but to say “A handgun and rifle are not military weapons” is simply wrong. They are, and always were. You can use a sword to chop firewood, but it remains a military weapon.

 

[ZiprHead]

JFC! The husband of one of the teachers that was murdered dropped over dead today while preparing her funeral.

 

[Ford]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you're an LEO with the training and kit to deal with this? You can draw fire and keep the shooter occupied. A teenager with a couple AR 15s is gonna maybe shift his focus from the 4th graders and deal with the cop who is trying to take him down, and being a teenager with a gun, he's not even remotely equipped to face that threat.

And yeah, it sucks for the cop who has to draw the fire, but that's the gig. You might get hit, but you've got a much better chance than little Tammy with her Hello Kitty backpack.

Even an unsuccessful engagement against a mass shooter usually stops the mass shooting.

Consider, for example, the Vegas nut--the first attack on his position was driven off and it was several minutes before they were able to go against him, but despite having driven off the attack and still having both weapons and targets he didn't fire another shot at the concert.

I'm familiar with the Vegas shooting. Sitting up half the night waiting to hear from a friend who was there, wondering if she was okay. Then hearing the stories from other friends who were hiding under a tour bus as bullets struck overhead.

That shooter had a stockpile of weapons this teenager could only dream of, and a position above his target. The "armed citizen" narrative was not even close to being applicable there, but that's what the right wing keeps pushing. And in this case, the "good guy with a gun" thing falls down because the good guys were waiting outside.

We live in scary times. When cops are in control of the situation and have the advantage on a black motorist they've pulled over, they unload their entire magazine into him if he so much as reaches for his phone. Active shooter in a school? It is beginning to look like "what? Go in there? Hold on a minute...we have to think of our own safety!"

 

[Toni]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you're an LEO with the training and kit to deal with this? You can draw fire and keep the shooter occupied. A teenager with a couple AR 15s is gonna maybe shift his focus from the 4th graders and deal with the cop who is trying to take him down, and being a teenager with a gun, he's not even remotely equipped to face that threat.

And yeah, it sucks for the cop who has to draw the fire, but that's the gig. You might get hit, but you've got a much better chance than little Tammy with her Hello Kitty backpack.

Even an unsuccessful engagement against a mass shooter usually stops the mass shooting.

Consider, for example, the Vegas nut--the first attack on his position was driven off and it was several minutes before they were able to go against him, but despite having driven off the attack and still having both weapons and targets he didn't fire another shot at the concert.

How many did he kill? I forget. I DO remember that it did not happen in the confines of an elementary school filled with school children.

In other words, a completely different situation except that there was a crazed killer determined to kill as many as possible.

 

[Ford]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you're an LEO with the training and kit to deal with this? You can draw fire and keep the shooter occupied. A teenager with a couple AR 15s is gonna maybe shift his focus from the 4th graders and deal with the cop who is trying to take him down, and being a teenager with a gun, he's not even remotely equipped to face that threat.

And yeah, it sucks for the cop who has to draw the fire, but that's the gig. You might get hit, but you've got a much better chance than little Tammy with her Hello Kitty backpack.

Even an unsuccessful engagement against a mass shooter usually stops the mass shooting.

Consider, for example, the Vegas nut--the first attack on his position was driven off and it was several minutes before they were able to go against him, but despite having driven off the attack and still having both weapons and targets he didn't fire another shot at the concert.

How many did he kill? I forget. I DO remember that it did not happen in the confines of an elementary school filled with school children.

In other words, a completely different situation except that there was a crazed killer determined to kill as many as possible.

Ah, but you see...for the "muh freedoms" crowd there isn't much difference at all.

In the imagination of cosplay Carl, he's walking back up to his hotel room after hitting the buffet and playing some nickel slots, when he notices a "suspicious" person loading guns into a room down the hall. He pulls his AR down off his shoulder, and confronts the nefarious bad guy. Stricken with fear, the potential mass shooter surrenders, Carl performs a citizen's arrest, and the LV PD showers him with praise for stopping what could have been a terrible crime.


This is the scenario that the "but muh freedoms" crowd imagines they'll be presented with. Bonus points for the shooter carrying a recently-cancelled check from George Soros. Because, you know...all mass shooters are left-wing radicals.


I wish I was joking, but there are really people who think this is how it would play out.

 

[lpetrich]

I checked on Uvalde County to see how its inhabitants voted in the most recent Presidential elections:
Election results maps 2020: See how many people voted, county numbers

• 2016: Trump 53.94% Clinton 43.14%
• 2020: Trump 59.70% Biden 39.38%

Populations, areas, and population densities:

•  Uvalde, Texas - 15,217 -- 7.67 mi^2 -- 1983/mi^2
•  Uvalde County, Texas - 24,564 -- 1559 mi^2 -- 16/mi^2

Uvalde is the largest city in its county.

Popular Security Strategies Have Not Stopped School Mass Shootings - The New York Times

In August 2020, law enforcement officers from five agencies converged inside the hallways of a school in Uvalde, Texas, their guns drawn, role-playing how they would halt a gunman.

The training, detailed in documents reviewed by The New York Times, was part of an overhaul of security preparedness in Uvalde — and across much of Texas. Uvalde school officials were doubling their budget for security, updating protocols and adding officers to the district’s Police Department. And the city’s separate police force dispatched its SWAT team, in tactical gear, to learn the layout of school buildings.

But none of the extensive preparations halted the rampage of an 18-year-old gunman who entered a Uvalde elementary school this week and killed 19 children and two teachers. Family members who had rushed to the scene said they pleaded with officers, who were assembling outside the school, to enter the building.

...
Still, there is little evidence nationally that the dollars poured into school security measures have decreased gun violence in schools, according to a 2019 study co-written by Jagdish Khubchandani, a professor of public health at New Mexico State University.

“These security measures are not effective,” Dr. Khubchandani said this week. “And they are not catching up to the ease of access with which people are acquiring guns in the pandemic.”

Joaquin Castro on Twitter: "State authorities have provided the public with conflicting accounts of how the tragedy in Uvalde unfolded. I’m calling on the @FBI to use their maximum authority to investigate and provide a full report on the timeline, the law enforcement response and how 21 Texans were killed." / Twitter
then
Joaquin Castro on Twitter: "Read my full letter to @FBI Director Christopher Wray: (link)" / Twitter
noting
Microsoft Word - Letter Director of FBI Christopher Wray.docx - Letter from Congressman Castro 05.26.22.pdf

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Politicians insisting you “not politicize” mass shootings enabled by horrifying policies THEY taketo uphold are really just telling you to accept them.

But it’s not acceptable. And they are the ones politicizing by opposing common sense laws widely agreed upon by the public." / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Four babies left behind. There are simply no words to hold this devastation and heartbreak. None." / Twitter
noting
Ernie Zuniga on Twitter: "Joe Garcia, the husband of Irma Garcia, one of two teachers shot and killed in Uvalde, TX on Tuesday, has reportedly suffered a fatal heart attack. Joe and Irma were high school sweethearts and married 24 years. They leave behind four children. (pic link)" / Twitter
A rather literal sort of dying of a broken heart.

It's the brain where emotions live, not the heart, even if one's heart may indicate some emotional state. The brain does *everything* mental, not just higher reasoning, though different parts do different things: emotions in "lower" parts, reasoning in "upper" parts.

 

[lpetrich]

Brynn Tannehill on Twitter: "Let's review the (reported) performance ..." / Twitter

Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:

- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour

- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves

- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter

- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key

- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school

- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation

- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine

- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence

- Initially lied about the timeline

- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget

One more:

- Initial reports by police that they pursued and pinned down the shooter in a classroom were false. In reality, the shooter had plenty of time, and locked himself inside a classroom.

EDIT: The first tweet in the tweet should read

"Threatening to taze or arrest parents, while physically preventing them from trying to save their children, while doing nothing for 35 minutes"

I regret the inaccuracy

More from the WSJ: panicked parents who were begging police officers to save their children were put in handcuffs and informed they were being placed under arrest.

Follow on reporting suggests that the delay in police response may have cost the life of at least one child.

Additional information:

* Police reverse themselves and now say that there the school officer wasn't there to try to stop the shooter.

* Bluechecks claiming that there's 18 minutes of police radio recording missing

WSJ: Shooter spent 12 minutes outside the school before entering.

Police just keep looking worse and worse.

Jason X-Clamation! on Twitter: "@BrynnTannehill @stilllaurieone The worst crime you can ever commit is disobeying a cop. There is no trial, and the punishment may include detention, beatings, tazing, and death. But worst of all it now includes being prevented from saving children, your own children, from being murdered while cops harass you." / Twitter

 

[bilby]

It's the brain where emotions live, not the heart, even if one's heart may indicate some emotional state. The brain does *everything* mental, not just higher reasoning, though different parts do different things: emotions in "lower" parts, reasoning in "upper" parts.

I really don’t understand this widespread belief in the brain.

Emotions don’t reside solely in the brain, they are a product of the endocrine system, and are thus systemic throughout the body.

Many tissues outside the central nervous system generate hormones that elicit emotional responses, and those responses involve every tissue and every living human cell in the body.

The heart may not be a progenitor of emotion, but it certainly responds significantly to it, and stress and/or emotion driven cardiac events, including fatal events, are commonly seen in response to endocrine signals.

The brain isn’t the source of adrenaline or cortisol, for example; But it’s likely these hormones that are most important in stress related cardiovascular events.

The brain might like to tell us how centrally important it is, but it’s a fucking liar, and we shouldn’t believe too much of what it claims.