The incredible Willful Ignorance of 1/6 denyers

[Elixir]

When the foundation of a belief system is "bias", there is a very very very long road to critical reasoning. Especially when one insulates themselves in a media bubble. I was shocked just how radical AM Radio was becoming in the past year or two.

That has been decades in the making. When the Cross Ownership Act was negated by the elecommunications Act of 1996, over 4,000 radio stations were bought out. Minority ownership of TV stations dropped to its lowest point since the federal government began tracking such data. And since then, restrictions on media merging have only decreased.
When single entities were permitted to own thousands of stations, programming became an exercise in efficiency. They had exactly ONE model they needed to push. No more hiring local talent or production staff - they already had Rush Limbaugh, pre-packaged, one-size fits all and ready to jam down the throats of audiences nationwide, with a guaranteed level of ratings that ensured record profitability from advertising revenue.
It's not that radio station owners suddenly became conservative - they're just driven by the same corporate greed that undermines product quality in every single unregulated market there ever was. Conservative listeners are easy to manipulate, so why bother trying to herd the cats that comprise the liberal segment of society? You don't don't want to waste shareholder money doing that unless you want angry shareholders to vote you off the board.

 

[Ford]

Can't, the party of the GOP seems quite content on eliminating taxes for corporations and the wealthy, making us proles have to work till we die, and forcing newly pregnant women to have to give birth. The GOP has two sides, bat shit insane and religious radicals. They don't care about us.

Trump is not the GOP though, they really don't like him either. Its about the only thing McConnel agrees with Schumer on is they both wish Trump was gone.

That means absolutely nothing if they are unwilling to take even the smallest action against him, or even hold him to any rational limitation of his powers.

They actually empower him in so many ways...large and small. The biggest one by far is that they've given him a platform. Their entire party. He is the de facto leader of the Republican Party, and they line up in lockstep with him when push comes to shove. When Liz Cheney - a lifelong hard core conservative Republican and daughter of arguably the most powerful VP ever - dared to stand up against Trump the party couldn't move fast enough to kick her out.

That proved that if they wanted to, the GOP can indeed (for all intents and purposes) kick someone out of the party. I'd say that Cheney broke Reagan's 11th Commandment and that's why she was shown the door, but Trump routinely savages fellow Republicans and suffers no consequences. He is their "Dear Leader." Infallible and unassailable.

They also empower him in more subtle ways. Take election "fraud" for example. They all know full well the 2020 election was not "stolen." In some of the swing states that went for Biden (such as here in AZ), the GOP controls the state offices charged with running the elections. So they know there was no fraud because they have the receipts. But put any Republican politician on a talk show (Cheney and a few others excepted) and ask them point blank if the election was "stolen" or if Biden is the legitimately elected President and they go into full weasel mode. "There were irregularities and we need to ensure the integrity of the vote" or some such nonsense, or they'll grudgingly admit that Biden is actually President (with qualifying statements and weasel-words thrown in) or they will simply stonewall and try to change the subject. That's a signal to the Trump "base" that says they're behind him 100 percent (even though privately they know all the fraud claims are bullshit).

As for RVonse's claim that they don't like him? That's about as solid as Trump's claim the election was "rigged." Truth is, the GOP fucking loves him...albeit in a very GOP way. They give him power because he gives them power. Is it good for the party in the long term? No, but the party is like a corporate board who will happily slash costs at the company to goose the stock price for the 4th quarter even if it is bad for business long-term. He gets them attention even though it is in an "any publicity is good publicity" way, and more importantly he brings in money. Shitloads of campaign donations from small donors who scrape together money to buy a MAGA hat and give 20 bucks, to billionaires who throw money at Senate campaigns like candy. Fundraising is where the rubber hits the road, and rest assured they'd be more amenable to dumping Trump if the funding dried up, but it is flowing freely. That is one thing Trump is good at, after all...raising money for a project that's all shiny at first but doomed to fail in the long run.

They're not gonna kill the Golden (well, orange) Goose. Even if he's indicted, arrested, or even convicted. They may not love him personally, but they love everything he does for them, even if it's killing the party. We can only hope they keep looking lovingly at Dear Leader.

 

[Politesse]

As for RVonse's claim that they don't like him? That's about as solid as Trump's claim the election was "rigged." Truth is, the GOP fucking loves him...albeit in a very GOP way.

Just like GW. After his career was well and truly over, they couldn't scramble over enough bodies fast enough to try and pretend they were all privately opposed to his more extreme policies. Secretly, in ways that were in no wise visible to the common public. I expect the same to re-occur if the final bid for coup fails.

 

[ZiprHead]

When the foundation of a belief system is "bias", there is a very very very long road to critical reasoning. Especially when one insulates themselves in a media bubble. I was shocked just how radical AM Radio was becoming in the past year or two.

That has been decades in the making. When the Cross Ownership Act was negated by the elecommunications Act of 1996, over 4,000 radio stations were bought out. Minority ownership of TV stations dropped to its lowest point since the federal government began tracking such data. And since then, restrictions on media merging have only decreased.
When single entities were permitted to own thousands of stations, programming became an exercise in efficiency. They had exactly ONE model they needed to push. No more hiring local talent or production staff - they already had Rush Limbaugh, pre-packaged, one-size fits all and ready to jam down the throats of audiences nationwide, with a guaranteed level of ratings that ensured record profitability from advertising revenue.
It's not that radio station owners suddenly became conservative - they're just driven by the same corporate greed that undermines product quality in every single unregulated market there ever was. Conservative listeners are easy to manipulate, so why bother trying to herd the cats that comprise the liberal segment of society? You don't don't want to waste shareholder money doing that unless you want angry shareholders to vote you off the board.

I remember Randi Rhodes saying she got to talk to President Clinton once and complained about the Telecommunications act. He said something to the effect of "Yeah, that may have been a mistake."

 

[bilby]

Well the bilby's out there are unaware of just how many things are voted on in American elections.

I'm not unaware, just unsympathetic towards self inflicted problems.

The whole point of representative democracy is that you pay representatives to make decisions about stuff.

Paying representatives and then still being asked to make the decisions about the details is like owning a dog, and barking yourself.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Voting and democracy should both be restored and not replaced.

Just because it doesn't produce the result you want doesn't mean it needs restoring.

We no longer have fair voting because we still use electronic machines with no paper trail which can be easily hacked. And we no longer have democracy because most of the population is no longer represented by our government. For example, if we had democracy we would have national healthcare like most other western democracies and we would also be in far less fake wars that have little to do with the average person.

I don't know about other states but we have electronic machines that do leave a paper trail.

Why not just cut out the "middleman" and have paper ballots? One less thing for some to complain about at least.

A lot harder to count, a lot more errors, and much easier to hack (replace ballots with fakes filled out the way you want them.) They're also legally problematic because they are not disabled-friendly.

 

[Tigers!]

Voting and democracy should both be

Why not just cut out the "middleman" and have paper ballots? One less thing for some to complain about at least.

Because they take a long time and a lot of effort to count as accurately as the machines do.

And it’s extremely rare, if at all, that the machines miscount in a way that makes a difference in an election.

Manually takes more time and effort. So what? What does it matter if you do not know on the day of the election who won?
3 guarantees on any election night
1. The sun will rise the next morning.
2. The country/state will continue to operate (maybe better without a government).
3. Your mother will still love you.

The pollies and their staff wish to know who if they have a job as their pay is dependent upon it. Apart from them it matters not if the result is not known for a few days.

Could you please explain how you think a person doing a manual recount and entering that information is going to be error free?

Again anything that involves hard work seems to be anathema to so many Americans.

From experience I can guarantee you that five different persons each recording the results of 250,000 ballots will have different totals for every candidate even though they counted and recorded the exact same ballots. That's simply human error and it happens all the time. It's essentially a human inspection process that persons working in manufacturing environments are all too familiar with.

After the Aust. Commonwealth election in 2013 I was hired for 6 weeks to count senate ballot papers. Myself with dozens of ordinary Australians sat down and proceeded to count valid senate ballots. We were given sheaves of ballot papers about 1m wide and 30cm deep to count. We counted both amounts of ballots and the candidate in the first position. From all over Australia. Every state did the same. Each sheaf had to agree in quantity of ballots and first candidate. Each sheaf was done who knows how many times.
We did the same for the informal ballots. Tedious? Yes. Necessary? Yes.
(It was during this time i realised just how many voters believe their mother could do a better job. In many cases I daresay they are correct. Also the Queen (QEII) got an awful lot of votes for much the same reasons as the mothers).
We do not vet voting officials, except that they must be a citizen. We trust each other a lot more you Yanks do it seems.
Also a lot of Australian have trouble filling in a ballot.

The proven solution is to remove the human element from the inspection process and audit the mechanical inspection process. It gives far more consistent and accurate results, takes far less time and costs far less money. The important question is how MAGAtards don't know this. What is it about the MAGAtard experience, or more likely lack of experience in life, that makes them think their results will be perfect compared to a machine?

Ironic coming from the country that gaves us chads. It is a mechanical process IIRC.

And that's a rhetorical question because we all know that MAGAtards don't mistrust the mechanical process. Rather, they just don't like losing and so invent a train of excuses because they are butthurt whenever their pride takes a hit because they lost. Maybe MAGAtards just didn't play enough sports when they were kids.

Perhaps they do not like losing. I daresay you do not too based, upon the amount of whinging you and others did of these fora during Trump's reign as king of the world.

 

[Tigers!]

Voting and democracy should both be restored and not replaced.

Just because it doesn't produce the result you want doesn't mean it needs restoring.

We no longer have fair voting because we still use electronic machines with no paper trail which can be easily hacked. And we no longer have democracy because most of the population is no longer represented by our government. For example, if we had democracy we would have national healthcare like most other western democracies and we would also be in far less fake wars that have little to do with the average person.

I don't know about other states but we have electronic machines that do leave a paper trail.

Why not just cut out the "middleman" and have paper ballots? One less thing for some to complain about at least.

A lot harder to count, a lot more errors, and much easier to hack (replace ballots with fakes filled out the way you want them.) They're also legally problematic because they are not disabled-friendly.

Harder to count - yes. So what?
More errors? That is debatable.
Easy to hack? Paper - certainly possible but requires immense work. More work than getting it right the first time. Electronic machines - There are plenty of wicked puppies on the dark web who could hack your machines far easier than ballot stuffing.
Disabled friendly? Our paper system work quite well. If problems are found we fix them instead of complaining. Oh wait I see your problem now.

No ballot system will ever be 100% error free or easy. But how much is your electoral process worth to you?

The problem is not the electoral process per se. Rather the problem(s) is that you Yanks are whingers, hate each other so much and do not like to wait.

 

[Tigers!]

It's not that radio station owners suddenly became conservative - they're just driven by the same corporate greed that undermines product quality in every single unregulated market there ever was. Conservative listeners are easy to manipulate,

Ever noticed that non-conservatives are also easy to manipulate. Must be a human thing.
If the "conservative" stations bother you so much start non-conservative ones. I know, I know it is hard work. Much easier to whinge. And more fun too.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Voting and democracy should both be restored and not replaced.

Just because it doesn't produce the result you want doesn't mean it needs restoring.

We no longer have fair voting because we still use electronic machines with no paper trail which can be easily hacked. And we no longer have democracy because most of the population is no longer represented by our government. For example, if we had democracy we would have national healthcare like most other western democracies and we would also be in far less fake wars that have little to do with the average person.

I don't know about other states but we have electronic machines that do leave a paper trail.

Why not just cut out the "middleman" and have paper ballots? One less thing for some to complain about at least.

A lot harder to count, a lot more errors, and much easier to hack (replace ballots with fakes filled out the way you want them.) They're also legally problematic because they are not disabled-friendly.

Harder to count - yes. So what?
More errors? That is debatable.
Easy to hack? Paper - certainly possible but requires immense work. More work than getting it right the first time. Electronic machines - There are plenty of wicked puppies on the dark web who could hack your machines far easier than ballot stuffing.
Disabled friendly? Our paper system work quite well. If problems are found we fix them instead of complaining. Oh wait I see your problem now.

No ballot system will ever be 100% error free or easy. But how much is your electoral process worth to you?

The problem is not the electoral process per se. Rather the problem(s) is that you Yanks are whingers, hate each other so much and do not like to wait.

Other than Republicans losing what actual problem with the American voting system are we talking about needing correction?

One can claim susceptibility to hacking or whatever but since no one can find evidence of that actually happening are we in a “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” situation?

Maybe human-counted paper ballots are intrinsically “better” but apparently our system is good enough.

Even the Republicans with integrity (the few that exist) have admitted that the 2020 election was safe, accurate and secure.

When fraud was actually investigated using techniques that relies in evidence and not opinion most often if produced incidents of Republicans voting in dead people’s names. And just a few cases not hundreds or thousands.

 

[Tigers!]

Voting and democracy should both be restored and not replaced.

Just because it doesn't produce the result you want doesn't mean it needs restoring.

We no longer have fair voting because we still use electronic machines with no paper trail which can be easily hacked. And we no longer have democracy because most of the population is no longer represented by our government. For example, if we had democracy we would have national healthcare like most other western democracies and we would also be in far less fake wars that have little to do with the average person.

I don't know about other states but we have electronic machines that do leave a paper trail.

Why not just cut out the "middleman" and have paper ballots? One less thing for some to complain about at least.

A lot harder to count, a lot more errors, and much easier to hack (replace ballots with fakes filled out the way you want them.) They're also legally problematic because they are not disabled-friendly.

Harder to count - yes. So what?
More errors? That is debatable.
Easy to hack? Paper - certainly possible but requires immense work. More work than getting it right the first time. Electronic machines - There are plenty of wicked puppies on the dark web who could hack your machines far easier than ballot stuffing.
Disabled friendly? Our paper system work quite well. If problems are found we fix them instead of complaining. Oh wait I see your problem now.

No ballot system will ever be 100% error free or easy. But how much is your electoral process worth to you?

The problem is not the electoral process per se. Rather the problem(s) is that you Yanks are whingers, hate each other so much and do not like to wait.

Other than Republicans losing what actual problem with the American voting system are we talking about needing correction?

Your electoral college constantly pops up. Many on these fora do not like it and wish it gone.

One can claim susceptibility to hacking or whatever but since no one can find evidence of that actually happening are we in a “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” situation?

Maybe human-counted paper ballots are intrinsically “better” but apparently our system is good enough.

Even the Republicans with integrity (the few that exist) have admitted that the 2020 election was safe, accurate and secure.

When fraud was actually investigated using techniques that relies in evidence and not opinion most often if produced incidents of Republicans voting in dead people’s names. And just a few cases not hundreds or thousands.

The problem is human. Why do you yanks hate and mistrust each other so much?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Other than Republicans losing what actual problem with the American voting system are we talking about needing correction?

Your electoral college constantly pops up. Many on these fora do not like it and wish it gone.

The electoral college is a separate issue than how we conduct the counting of elections. I was responding to the comments about vote counting.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Harder to count - yes. So what?
More errors? That is debatable.
Easy to hack? Paper - certainly possible but requires immense work. More work than getting it right the first time. Electronic machines - There are plenty of wicked puppies on the dark web who could hack your machines far easier than ballot stuffing.

And of course you must be able to point to data which backs up your claims. The courts in this country have repeatedly affirmed the security and accuracy of voting machines. Election deniers and fraud claimsters have provided zero evidence that there are problems and when questioned under oath have always changed their stories.

But go ahead and show me how hand counts are more accurate, less costly, etc.

 

[Elixir]

Ever noticed that non-conservatives are also easy to manipulate.

Yup. Not as easy as conservatives, on average. Stupid people are easier to manipulate than smart people, and the GOP has a near monopoly on Teh Stoopid.

If the "conservative" stations bother you so much start non-conservative ones.

That’s not how it works. You probably never even heard of iHeart Media. They own literally thousands of stations. They don't start radio stations, they buy them from the people who started them, and make them more profitable by killing off expensive local programming and airing pre-packaged conservative talk shows.
iHeartMedia OWNS the [lease on] frequencies. They are immune from competition. There are not enough open frequencies in large markets to even make a dent in their holdings. Even if you could get hold of a few thousand frequencies by buying a few thousand radio stations from iHeart Media (not gonna happen) you'd still have a very unprofitable hill to climb.

 

[Elixir]

Why do you yanks hate and mistrust each other so much?

The problem is human.
- Tigers!
A lot of people love Donald Trump. I don't trust anyone who can't tell he's a con and a fraud; they're oblivious to human cues, no matter how well intended they may be. The "problem" was far less pronounced in American society prior to the Orange Menace getting into politics. He put a face [his] to it, and put that ugly face forward on behalf of one of the two major political parties in the Country. The result is that people like you on the other side of the world, think we hate each other.

 

[Ford]

The problem is human. Why do you yanks hate and mistrust each other so much?

I have a little bit of a different perspective on this. At least as regards to our former President. He used to be the host of a "reality" show you may have heard of called "The Apprentice."

A woman I know (she was the girlfriend of the guy who took over my job as morning show producer) was a contestant on the 6th season of this show. As such, she had first-hand experience with "The Donald" years before he threw his hat in the Presidential ring. Based on what I heard from her, he is - and this is putting it mildly - a giant piece of misogynistic shit. When he was being introduced to the cast members for that season, he was going down the line, shaking hands and offering platitudes and when he got to my friend stared right at her chest and said something very much like "honey, if you want to get anywhere in this business you're going to have to do something about those."

Not "welcome to the cast" or "we expect great things from you." Just "your tits aren't big enough."

That's what we're dealing with here. We inadvertently elevated a guy to the fucking Presidency that barely has any business being the assistant manager of a bowling alley. And people - hundreds of people - stormed the Capitol building for this asshole.

 

[Tigers!]

Harder to count - yes. So what?
More errors? That is debatable.
Easy to hack? Paper - certainly possible but requires immense work. More work than getting it right the first time. Electronic machines - There are plenty of wicked puppies on the dark web who could hack your machines far easier than ballot stuffing.

And of course you must be able to point to data which backs up your claims. The courts in this country have repeatedly affirmed the security and accuracy of voting machines. Election deniers and fraud claimsters have provided zero evidence that there are problems and when questioned under oath have always changed their stories.

But go ahead and show me how hand counts are more accurate, less costly, etc.

Never claimed hand counts are less costly or time consuming. They will not be. But so what? What is needed is reliability and consistency.
What you yanks seem to need is a consistent, coherent method of voting that reduces the possibility of complaints etc. When you use mechanical, electronic, paper, tally sticks then that inconsistency is ripe fro compaling. Simplify and standardise.

 

[Tigers!]

The problem is human. Why do you yanks hate and mistrust each other so much?

I have a little bit of a different perspective on this. At least as regards to our former President. He used to be the host of a "reality" show you may have heard of called "The Apprentice."

I lost 2 hours of my life watching the Aust. version.

A woman I know (she was the girlfriend of the guy who took over my job as morning show producer) was a contestant on the 6th season of this show. As such, she had first-hand experience with "The Donald" years before he threw his hat in the Presidential ring. Based on what I heard from her, he is - and this is putting it mildly - a giant piece of misogynistic shit. When he was being introduced to the cast members for that season, he was going down the line, shaking hands and offering platitudes and when he got to my friend stared right at her chest and said something very much like "honey, if you want to get anywhere in this business you're going to have to do something about those."

Not "welcome to the cast" or "we expect great things from you." Just "your tits aren't big enough."

That's what we're dealing with here. We inadvertently elevated a guy to the fucking Presidency that barely has any business being the assistant manager of a bowling alley. And people - hundreds of people - stormed the Capitol building for this asshole.

I was astounded that in 2016 you yanks threw up 2 such foolish (in their own endearing ways), unsuitable candidates.
320 million people to choose from and those 2 were the best you could come up with?

 

[Tigers!]

Why do you yanks hate and mistrust each other so much?

The problem is human.
- Tigers!
A lot of people love Donald Trump. I don't trust anyone who can't tell he's a con and a fraud; they're oblivious to human cues, no matter how well intended they may be. The "problem" was far less pronounced in American society prior to the Orange Menace getting into politics. He put a face [his] to it, and put that ugly face forward on behalf of one of the two major political parties in the Country. The result is that people like you on the other side of the world, think we hate each other.

Your problems predate Trump. Trump is the worse personification of your troubles but he is not the cause. I remember the angst with Obama and even Slick Willie. Yes, we have have been subjected to you Yanks' tomfoolery for decades.
i admire your consistency in constantly shooting your good selves in the feet but it is getting very tiresome seeing it over and over again.

 

[Tigers!]

Ever noticed that non-conservatives are also easy to manipulate.

Yup. Not as easy as conservatives, on average. Stupid people are easier to manipulate than smart people, and the GOP has a near monopoly on Teh Stoopid.

If the "conservative" stations bother you so much start non-conservative ones.

That’s not how it works. You probably never even heard of iHeart Media. They own literally thousands of stations. They don't start radio stations, they buy them from the people who started them, and make them more profitable by killing off expensive local programming and airing pre-packaged conservative talk shows.
iHeartMedia OWNS the [lease on] frequencies. They are immune from competition. There are not enough open frequencies in large markets to even make a dent in their holdings. Even if you could get hold of a few thousand frequencies by buying a few thousand radio stations from iHeart Media (not gonna happen) you'd still have a very unprofitable hill to climb.

The easiest person to manipulate is the one who thinks they are immune. That characteristic besets both conservative and non-conservative persons.