The incredible Willful Ignorance of 1/6 denyers

[Tigers!]

But so many Aussies are obsessed by you lot.

I must admit, we are mighty flattered by your others fascination. It’s like we’re all reality tv stars. We are all Donald Trump, and we all appreciate your support.

FIFY.

 

[Tigers!]

As for the disabled, how do you propose my mother (blind) vote on paper?? The electronic machines have audio outputs, paper does not. In the old days we simply accepted that people like her would need someone in the voting booth to actually mark the ballot but we don't have to do that anymore in most cases. (And the few that need assistance almost certainly are going to vote absentee anyway because getting to the polling station is too much work for them.)

Another advantage of paper ballots. A little easier for disabled and their helpers.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Again, our problems with voting aren’t the *counting*. It’s things like taking people off the voting rolls because their name is similar to a convict then forcing them to prove they’re not, which likely can’t be done fast enough to vote after they find out. Or by telling former inmates they can vote then go and arrest them when they do. Or not letting students use their IDs as proof of identify but letting gun owners use their licenses. Or only allowing one drop box per county irrespective of the county’s population. And I won’t even start on gerrymandering.

 

[Derec]

Again, our problems with voting aren’t the *counting*. It’s things like taking people off the voting rolls because their name is similar to a convict then forcing them to prove they’re not,

[citation needed]
In my state, people are removed from the rolls if they do not vote in several consecutive elections. Forgot the exact number.

Or by telling former inmates they can vote then go and arrest them when they do.

[citation needed]

Or not letting students use their IDs as proof of identify but letting gun owners use their licenses.

Ooh, I know this one. Texas, right? Misrepresentation. The issue is that you can use state issued id. Gun registration cards are issued by the state, but student ids for private colleges are obviously not.
We had a similar issue in Georgia. Students at Morehouse and Spelman complained that students from Tech or State could use their Buzz cards and Panther cards, while they could not.

Or only allowing one drop box per county irrespective of the county’s population.

You have a point there.

And I won’t even start on gerrymandering.

Gerrymandering cuts both ways. Dems in NY attempted a hell of a gerrymander and Dems in states like Illinois succeeded. Successful Dem gerrymanders were probably the reason the Rs have such a thin majority in the House.
But I agree that gerrymandering should not be allowed. And best way would be to move to proportional representation in the House as well as in state legislatures.

 

[Derec]

Might explain the two Virginias too I guess.

West Virginia seceded from Virginia because Virginia seceded from the US.

But it does explain the push to make solidly blue DC a state, even though its territory was carved out of Maryland (the part carved out of Virginia was returned to them long ago).

Instead of making DC a separate state, why not give it back to Maryland (minus a reduced federal district with no permanent population)? That would solve the representation problem without making it a separate state.

 

[Derec]

Folks who were paying close attention back in the 90s realized that while Bill Clinton was a savvy and charismatic politician, Hillary was the far smarter and far more ruthless operative.

Ruthless I can see, but why do you think she was "far smarter"? What has she done that shows her to be some kind of genius?

Good cop, bad cop and all that. When she was Secretary of State under Obama, Hillary was easily one of the most skilled diplomats the US has had in recent memory.

Based on what in particular are you concluding that?

If she were President?

She'd be more skilled than the president we got, but that is not saying much.

She'd rip his dick off and feed it to him.

Why are you leftists so obsessed with severing penises? Jarhyn in another thread wanted to bite somebody's penis off just for having different political opinions.

 

[Derec]

But, to illustrate, Trump has never won a single election. He's never come closer to winning than losing by ~3,000,000 votes.

He won the 2016 election. 304-227.
You win elections based on rules in place, not based on what you wish the rules were.
It's like saying a team did not win the NBA finals because, even though they won 4 games to other team's 3, the other team scored more total points. That's not how it works, that's not how any of it works.
Note also that Hillary did not win the majority of the vote either - only a plurality. In a system like in France, which elects presidents by popular vote, she and Trump would have gone into a runoff.
Another thing rarely appreciated is that the vote totals would be very different. Game would be played differently if the rules were different. From issues to emphasize, to travel itinerary and ad buys, to phone banking and getting out the vote efforts at the 11th hour.
You can't just superimpose existing results onto a very different set of rules and proclaim who "should" have won. It doesn't work like that.

He still wound up POTUS, by the USA system.

And he should have, by the rules in the Constitution. I agree that the EC should be abolished, but you can't change rules after the fact just because you don't like the outcome. Applies to Trump in 2020 too, of course.

 

[Derec]

Yup. Not as easy as conservatives, on average. Stupid people are easier to manipulate than smart people, and the GOP has a near monopoly on Teh Stoopid.

Given the number of "progressives" who protested/rioted 2014-2020 on behalf of thugs who'd as soon rob or kill them as look at them. Or drove 2000 miles (burning gasoline) to protest against an oil pipeline. Or are now camping in the woods outside Atlanta because they do not think police should have a training facility. I would say they are just as easy to manipulate.

You can't tell me that these stable geniuses are not infected by "Teh Stoopid" as well. The thug they are protesting about ("Pat Pat" aka Patrick Kimmons) was not only armed and a Rolling 60 Crip, but he also shot two people right before police shot him. Yes, they are that stupid.
It's the horseshoe model. Far right and far left are not that different.

 

[Derec]

The problem is human.

The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

Also:

 

[Derec]

It matters because white males, particularly of (any) certain generation have a point of view that does not necessarily include the perspective, the need, wants, visions, points of view or priorities of wonen,

And black women of (any) certain generation have a point of view that does not necessarily include the perspective, the need, wants, visions, points of view or priorities of nen[sic]. Or whites, or Asians etc.
Does that mean we should not care what old black women like Maxine Waters or Barbara Lee think just because of their age, race and gender? Or do you reserve your causal dismissal only for white men?

in general, non-white people in general, black men, black women, Hispanic men and Hispanic women, Asian Americans, Natuve Americans, young adults, middle aged adults, people currently raising children or grandchildren, LGBTQTA people, non-Christian’s middle class, working class and poor people, and so on.

That's quite a list there. McTurtle is married to an Asian woman by the way. Chuck Schumer is Jewish. But they are to be dismissed because ...

I’m not sure they ever had any interest beyond their bank accounts-and they remain extremely invested in protecting their bank accounts.

Avarice is not something limited to men. Or whites. Or old people.

 

[Derec]

Him sitting in the office for 4 years was getting over him winning the election. His numerous crimes after that warrant prison at best and possibly execution if he was in knowing service of a hostile foreign power.

Which power? Russia? What evidence of that is there? Especially since Trump supported domestic oil production, which goes against Russia's economic interests. And it's not like Russia invaded Crimea under Trump either. That happened in 2014 under Obama. Is he therefore a Russian agent too?

 

[Derec]

The fact that YOU were unaware that Trump was a lying cheating scumbag gangster, doesn’t mean everyone else was.
Most of those he fooled were fans of The Apprentice, and stupid enough to think the TV show had something to do with reality.

Well I never watched The Apprentice, and neither did I vote for him.
But it stands that in 2016 he did not have a record in government. And many voters wanted change, and saw Hillary as status quo candidate. That's also why not an insignificant number of Bernie voters voted for Trump. In 2016 at least. 2020 was different.

 

[Derec]

Whatever success Operation Warp Speed had was in spite of Trump, not because of him. I can think of zero successes of his administration. Zero.

That's special pleading.
And beside OWS, I would say US Embassy finally moving to Jerusalem as well as the Abraham Accords were a success. As was the reinstating of Dakota Access Pipeline permits. Probably some other things.
Even a widely incompetent White House will do a few things right in four years.

 

[Derec]

Trump did have a long record.

Not in government.

Philandering.

Some of our best presidents were philanderers.
I personally think we should separate personal and public life.

Racism.

What specifically do you think was racist?

Biden, like Clinton, won. By a lot!

Biden won, of course (306-232).
Bill Clinton won, by a lot (370-168 and 379-159). Hillary Clinton, however, lost (227-304).

We, The People, spoke and every time we chose someone besides Trump.

The people chuse the president state by state.

 

[Derec]

Operation Warp Speed... the project to get vaccines out to deal with Covid... when he was downplaying Covid-19 almost the entire time, even after telling Woodward that he had heard it was bad in the very beginning?

That's my point. Operation Warp Speed was a great success that Trump stupidly failed to capitalize on. Without him royally fucking up the approach to COVID, he likely would have won the reelection.

 

[Derec]

Again, your ignorance does not make the facts of which you unaware go away, contrary to what you seem to think.

Ignorance is all on your side.

You should have watched the hearings. There is a ton of evidence that he and his cabal orchestrated the attack on the certification of the election.

Which is different than orchestrating the actual riot at the Capitol.

There is no cure for willful ignorance, but you should probably stop making false pronouncements based on it.

Right back at ya.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As for the disabled, how do you propose my mother (blind) vote on paper?? The electronic machines have audio outputs, paper does not. In the old days we simply accepted that people like her would need someone in the voting booth to actually mark the ballot but we don't have to do that anymore in most cases. (And the few that need assistance almost certainly are going to vote absentee anyway because getting to the polling station is too much work for them.)

Another advantage of paper ballots. A little easier for disabled and their helpers.

And this is effectively the normalization of lying. Tiger keeps going back to access and accuracy of voting in America. Not because any evidence has suggested this is a problem (other than GOP trying limit access after at first expanding it in 2004ish). No, it keeps coming up because Trump et al repeated a lie so much it is now part of the truth, even while it is 100% false.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Again, your ignorance does not make the facts of which you unaware go away, contrary to what you seem to think.

Ignorance is all on your side.

You should have watched the hearings. There is a ton of evidence that he and his cabal orchestrated the attack on the certification of the election.

Which is different than orchestrating the actual riot at the Capitol.

But there is evidence that they did orchestrate it. Some were making comments about 1/6 being something else.

Then on 1/6, they stacked dynamite and lit the fuse. The followers then did what they were told.

What didn't happen was US Government assets being deployed within the angry mob. That was left to the people Trump had told to stand by at the Presidential Debate.

 

[Elixir]

Looks like a wall-o-crap got posted on this thread overnight. Maybe a mod will clean it up. It will be a shame if we lose such well thought out gems as “the ignorance is all yours!” or “right back atcha”.

A poster who knows shinola about what happened on 1/6 declares El Cheato less of a threat than BLM, and backs it up by venting their irrational fears In a wall of rants…

… but no excuse for the willful ignorance displayed by the 1/6 denying bard.

But there is evidence that they did orchestrate it.

The poster is uninterested in evidence. That is why they didn’t watch the hearings when evidence was presented.
The typical targets of the radical right are scared shitless of black people, not of blond haired blue eyed fascists.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Again, our problems with voting aren’t the *counting*. It’s things like taking people off the voting rolls because their name is similar to a convict then forcing them to prove they’re not,

[citation needed]
In my state, people are removed from the rolls if they do not vote in several consecutive elections. Forgot the exact number.

Happened in Florida a while back. Maybe not happening anymore.

Or by telling former inmates they can vote then go and arrest them when they do.

[citation needed]

This was DeSantis’ new voter fraud task force. Aerated people who were told that they could vote. Surprised you didn’t see this on the news.

Or not letting students use their IDs as proof of identify but letting gun owners use their licenses.

Ooh, I know this one. Texas, right? Misrepresentation. The issue is that you can use state issued id. Gun registration cards are issued by the state, but student ids for private colleges are obviously not.
We had a similar issue in Georgia. Students at Morehouse and Spelman complained that students from Tech or State could use their Buzz cards and Panther cards, while they could not.

Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right.

Or only allowing one drop box per county irrespective of the county’s population.

You have a point there.

Thanks

And I won’t even start on gerrymandering.

Gerrymandering cuts both ways. Dems in NY attempted a hell of a gerrymander and Dems in states like Illinois succeeded. Successful Dem gerrymanders were probably the reason the Rs have such a thin majority in the House.
But I agree that gerrymandering should not be allowed. And best way would be to move to proportional representation in the House as well as in state legislatures.

I am not arguing for one political side. I am arguing for democracy so yes neither side should gerrymander. Of course, the state boundaries are the ultimate gerrymander when it comes to federal elections.