• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

1st presidential debate 2016

...
Even if there is some actual legitimate reason to withhold the latest returns due to an audit and that's not just one more of the countless lies he's made, it still wouldn't be relevant.

Is Donald Trump Really Being Audited by the IRS?
By Matthew Cooper On 8/10/16 at 10:00 AM

... he has yet to produce definitive proof that he is really being investigated.

To back up the contention that he is being audited, Trump’s campaign earlier this year released a letter from his tax lawyers stating that he was under audit. That leaves the public having to take the word of Trump’s paid legal advocates. There’s a more definitive option: The real estate developer could very easily produce documentation from the Internal Revenue Service stating that he is under audit.

When the IRS audits a person or a business, it’s standard procedure for the federal tax-collecting agency to send an audit letter that informs the subject that returns are being scrutinized. If Trump is really under an audit, he would have this letter, and he would be perfectly free to release it. Sometimes, the IRS will notify a subject with a phone call, but it’s always followed by a letter, according to the IRS.

After Newsweek asked for a copy of the IRS audit letter sent to Trump, a campaign spokesperson last week pointed to the campaign’s website and the letter that was released by Trump’s attorneys at the Washington, D.C., firm Morgan, Lewis & Bockius. A follow-up query to the campaign asking for a copy of the actual IRS audit letter itself has gone unanswered. Newsweek offered to accept a redaction of any personal information that might be in the letter, such as a Social Security number, although generally audit letters contain just a name and address, which in Trump’s case is well known to be Trump Tower.

In lieu of producing the audit letter, there’s really no proof that Trump is being audited.

The letter from Trump’s tax lawyers, Sheri Dillon and William Nelson, is no substitute. It deals with Trump’s personal returns, but it’s also kind of a business return as well. Dillon and Nelson note that he has “sole proprietorships” in some 500 different entities, making his personal returns “inordinately large and complex.”

In the letter, the lawyers claim the mogul has been under “continuous examination” by the IRS since 2002, “consistent with the IRS’ practice for large and complex businesses.” The letter also asserts that IRS examinations of Trump’s tax returns from 2002 to 2008 have been “closed administratively,” while its examinations of returns for the years since 2009 are “ongoing.”

The lawyers also claim that Trump’s recent tax returns are essentially extensions of his older returns, which include “items that are attributable to continuing transactions or activities that were also reported on returns for 2008 and earlier.” Translation: Even old returns that are not under audit can’t be released because they’re integral to what’s being currently audited.

The whole idea of whether he could release them while under audit is a smoke screen to throw everyone off the track. Trump at his best. :thinking:
 
I wouldn't want to release my tax records until they audited or rubber stamped by the Inland revenue. I don't think many companies will do the same. However this leads to speculation. Until Obama released his birth certificate there was a lot of speculation that he wasn't American.

Why, are your tax records fraudulent?

If you are an honest individual what would _change_ from before an audit to after?


Hmmm?

Some people need approval from an authority before they do anything with their personal business.
 
That's not courage. It's intelligence. [Fighting battles you know you'll lose is stupid. He said it himself. He didn't release his tax records because he's smart. Ie, if he would release them he would be found guilty.
Guilty of what? Being a rich or a tightwad or that he pays little in taxes? The first is irrelevant since he openly brags about his wealth. The third endears him to his base, and the second no on really care about. Trump does not get embarrassed. And your response ignores the medical records. .
Too bad people are too idiotic to draw that obvious conclusion.
Which is worse when running for President - looking like a chickenshit or rich tax avoiding tight wad? But at least we do agree that it is too bad people are too idiotic to draw the obvious conclusion


He didn't pay taxes for couple of years because his businesses took heavy losses. He took losses and that lowered his taxes. He's a self announced great businessman.
 
If one googles presidential debate, fact check, you can get a lot of fact checkers take on who bent the truth or even outright lied. Almost all the major newspapers fact checked this debate. Trump got called out the most it seems.

Are you surprised at that?
 
Is Donald Trump Really Being Audited by the IRS?
By Matthew Cooper On 8/10/16 at 10:00 AM

... he has yet to produce definitive proof that he is really being investigated.

To back up the contention that he is being audited, Trump’s campaign earlier this year released a letter from his tax lawyers stating that he was under audit. That leaves the public having to take the word of Trump’s paid legal advocates. There’s a more definitive option: The real estate developer could very easily produce documentation from the Internal Revenue Service stating that he is under audit.

When the IRS audits a person or a business, it’s standard procedure for the federal tax-collecting agency to send an audit letter that informs the subject that returns are being scrutinized. If Trump is really under an audit, he would have this letter, and he would be perfectly free to release it. Sometimes, the IRS will notify a subject with a phone call, but it’s always followed by a letter, according to the IRS.

After Newsweek asked for a copy of the IRS audit letter sent to Trump, a campaign spokesperson last week pointed to the campaign’s website and the letter that was released by Trump’s attorneys at the Washington, D.C., firm Morgan, Lewis & Bockius. A follow-up query to the campaign asking for a copy of the actual IRS audit letter itself has gone unanswered. Newsweek offered to accept a redaction of any personal information that might be in the letter, such as a Social Security number, although generally audit letters contain just a name and address, which in Trump’s case is well known to be Trump Tower.

In lieu of producing the audit letter, there’s really no proof that Trump is being audited.

The letter from Trump’s tax lawyers, Sheri Dillon and William Nelson, is no substitute. It deals with Trump’s personal returns, but it’s also kind of a business return as well. Dillon and Nelson note that he has “sole proprietorships” in some 500 different entities, making his personal returns “inordinately large and complex.”

In the letter, the lawyers claim the mogul has been under “continuous examination” by the IRS since 2002, “consistent with the IRS’ practice for large and complex businesses.” The letter also asserts that IRS examinations of Trump’s tax returns from 2002 to 2008 have been “closed administratively,” while its examinations of returns for the years since 2009 are “ongoing.”

The lawyers also claim that Trump’s recent tax returns are essentially extensions of his older returns, which include “items that are attributable to continuing transactions or activities that were also reported on returns for 2008 and earlier.” Translation: Even old returns that are not under audit can’t be released because they’re integral to what’s being currently audited.

The whole idea of whether he could release them while under audit is a smoke screen to throw everyone off the track. Trump at his best. :thinking:

No, it is not possible that his lawyers lied about this. Lawyers can repeat the lies that their clients or witnesses tell, always prefaced with attribution of the lie, that is, "he testified that ..." , but it is unethical for them to make up and to tell their own lies.

At the most fundamental level, when you hire a lawyer you get the promise based on their ethics and subject to their possible disbarment and the loss of their livelihood, that they will never intentionally lie to you. But they will also never lie for you either.
 
He didn't pay taxes for couple of years because his businesses took heavy losses. He took losses and that lowered his taxes. He's a self announced great businessman.

And he said that makes him smart. He didn't explain it with business losses. He said he was smart.
 
That's not courage. It's intelligence. [Fighting battles you know you'll lose is stupid. He said it himself. He didn't release his tax records because he's smart. Ie, if he would release them he would be found guilty.
Guilty of what? Being a rich or a tightwad or that he pays little in taxes? The first is irrelevant since he openly brags about his wealth. The third endears him to his base, and the second no on really care about. Trump does not get embarrassed. And your response ignores the medical records.

Of tax evasion. Everybody knows all rich people do it, but I think most people don't know how it's done... and it ain't pretty. I don't think it'll help Donald Trump's election bid when people learn that he's been keeping all the money from his charity himself.

There's also the question of fiscal competence. The guy was born rich. If he had put the money he inherited in the bank and invested them in the safest low risk bonds possible, he'd still have six times as much money as he has now. The guy can't be trusted with money. His tax records will show as much.
 
Is Donald Trump Really Being Audited by the IRS?
By Matthew Cooper On 8/10/16 at 10:00 AM



The whole idea of whether he could release them while under audit is a smoke screen to throw everyone off the track. Trump at his best. :thinking:

No, it is not possible that his lawyers lied about this. Lawyers can repeat the lies that their clients or witnesses tell, always prefaced with attribution of the lie, that is, "he testified that ..." , but it is unethical for them to make up and to tell their own lies.

This part:
In the letter, the lawyers claim the mogul has been under “continuous examination” by the IRS since 2002, “consistent with the IRS’ practice for large and complex businesses.” The letter also asserts that IRS examinations of Trump’s tax returns from 2002 to 2008 have been “closed administratively,” while its examinations of returns for the years since 2009 are “ongoing.”

Where do you see the word "audit"? "Examination" can mean just about anything. Far too many words, when simply saying "he is being audited" would suffice. But as you say, they would not lie about this.
 

I wouldn't want to release my tax records until they audited or rubber stamped by the Inland revenue. I don't think many companies will do the same. However this leads to speculation. Until Obama released his birth certificate there was a lot of speculation that he wasn't American.

You're kidding, right? Birthers simply called the 2008-released document a fake and then the 2011-released document a fake.
 
I wouldn't want to release my tax records until they audited or rubber stamped by the Inland revenue. I don't think many companies will do the same. However this leads to speculation. Until Obama released his birth certificate there was a lot of speculation that he wasn't American.

You're kidding, right? Birthers simply called the 2008-released document a fake and then the 2011-released document a fake.

I'm sure whichphilosophy is well aware that insinuations pulled out of one's ass can often be effective smokescreens for what's really going on. Not always, but in the minds of those hiding their own bad behaviors, it's a go-to response to criticism and questions.
 
These quotes are froim Stormfront, in a thread called "Trump Wins First Debate by a Landslide," where they were excitedly touting those online polls as though it meant something, and they were mostly supportive of Trump's performance, but even a lot of them thought he sucked.

Nah, Trump was a pussy. He treated her with kid gloves and never attacked her on the Bengazi affair, her emails (just touched on the subject), and she kept him on the back foot defending himself, instead of it being the other way around.

This is what I keep hearing the most from Trump supporters who are grousing about the loss and Trump's bad performance. If Clinton wasn't asked about Benghazi or her emails then they were pitching soft to her and bullying Trump and it wasn't a 'fair' debate.
 
Best line of the whole debate

Turns out that the best line was almost the last line. Bringing up the former Miss Universe whom he verbally abused some twenty years ago... genius.

All that the moron had to do was not respond, so of course he rose to the bait. And today he swallowed it all, hook, line, sinker, pole and boat. Just HAD to try to make himself look like his abuse was justified, so he attacked her again.
An appropriate source

He HAS to be a savant of the idiot variety, or else he is trying at all cost to lose the election without losing his business connections.
 
He just said that he can't release his tax returns because of an audit. Flat out lie. He refused to say why he wouldn't release them.

Holt just called him on that and he deflected again.

ETA: Now he said it is because of the emails.

It seems that politicians in the US tend to attack each other rather than debate the issues. However if he is having an audit then the returns cannot be released until the figures are finalised.

IRS says he can release the returns with no problem
 
Where do you understand that from? The IRS and everyone except Trump are quite clear that there's no reason he can't release them.

And even Trump said he could release them 'immediately' if Hillary released her emails. So Trump is lying - yet again.

What I find more interesting, yet it isn't commented on much, is his claim of being audited every year so 15-or-so years. He, in his usual paranoia, alluded to some conspiracy to target him; said no one else he knows gets audited every year.

Well, I don't buy his conspiracy nuttiness, so IF he is telling the truth about being audited every year, I have to wonder why. What bullshit is he pulling in his tax returns that cause them to be flagged every year?

The other thing his claim of annual audits tells me is that he has no intention of ever releasing his returns under any circumstances. If he is permanently under audit, he will always claim he can't release them
 
Ah, the OT tap dancing superpowerz have returned. Truth doesn't matter; protect the fake PR image at all costs. Familiar pattern.

It's simply not true that there is anything at all preventing Trump from releasing his tax returns. The "If we pretend hard enough, our delusions will come true" only works on cult followers and Trump supporters.

Until he does (eventually) we can only speculate. Maybe there are some skeletons in the cupboard, but we don't know at this point. The media speculated a lot about Obama's birth certificate but it was released there wasn't much to discuss after that.

1. There was never anything to discuss about President Obama's birth records BEFORE he released them
2. Releasing then did not stop Donald Trump from continuing to talk about it for 5 years after.

I get the argument you are trying to make, but your analogy isn't
 
And even Trump said he could release them 'immediately' if Hillary released her emails. So Trump is lying - yet again.

What I find more interesting, yet it isn't commented on much, is his claim of being audited every year so 15-or-so years. He, in his usual paranoia, alluded to some conspiracy to target him; said no one else he knows gets audited every year.

Well, I don't buy his conspiracy nuttiness, so IF he is telling the truth about being audited every year, I have to wonder why. What bullshit is he pulling in his tax returns that cause them to be flagged every year?

The other thing his claim of annual audits tells me is that he has no intention of ever releasing his returns under any circumstances. If he is permanently under audit, he will always claim he can't release them

Also, the IRS publishes audit statistics - around 10% of those earning $1M-$10M, and around 16% of those earning $10M+ were audited last year. If he's been audited for the last 15 years straight, there's only a few options - either the audit rate approaches 100% as income increases or his returns are constantly flagged for shadiness.

I don't think all billionaires get yearly audits and Trump may not even have income that high. So, red flags abound.
 
And that is when we'll know who actually won.

Correct. If the American people saw something in Trump's performance which had them say "I was undecided but now I think that this guy should be President" then Hillary Clinton is fucked. There was apparently a huge audience for this debate and if the result of it is that Trump's poll numbers go up then there's really nothing that Clinton can do to win the election. It would mean that there is such an appetite for change - any type of change - that they are voting for the guy who is promising to break the system and they have absolutely no concern who it is that's doing that or how it's being done, so Trump's lies and missteps aren't a relevant factor in their decisions.

If Trump's poll numbers start to go down, I also don't think that there's much he can do to even them out again. It will mean that when they stood together side by side, he was found wanting. Further debates and campaign events aren't going to have the same impact as the first time that most people really started paying attention and judging them as the two potential options.

One way or another, this debate decided the election.

Not necessarily according to Steve Kornacki. Although Trump's poll numbers going up after this would make me lose what is left of my hope and respect for 40-something percent of my fellow countrymen, Kornacki makes the case that because HRC went into this first debate ahead in the polls, she could afford to lose this one and still win the presidency.
 
Back
Top Bottom