The Manhood Trap

[Toni]

Still waiting for @RVonse to explain this disempowering the wimmins thing, and how it would help incels get laid.

I am still waiting for a reason why anyone other than themselves should care a whit whether or not incels get laid.

Because they're Trump's "muscle".

Because they vote.

 

[Emily Lake]

The only reason I can see for a human penis to evolve to scoop out other men’s ejaculate in order to ensure his sperm fertilizes the egg is in a gang bang situation. Which genuinely only makes sense if humans undergo a heat, which they do not.

Logic contradicts that supposition even if greater than a cursory knowledge of female anatomy and conception escape us.

Are you 100% certain that none of our ancestors several million years ago ever had an estrus cycle? Seriously, you're acting like the human penis only evolved a hundred years ago.

 

[Emily Lake]

Ohmyfuckinggod: You seem to believe that women regularly line guys up and let them ejaculate, one after another.

Toni, you're assuming that millions of years of evolution somehow had modern culture in mind when they happened.

The evolutionary pressures that *might have* resulted in the particular shape of human penises has nothing at all to do with the behavior of women in current society. We can recognize that our ancestors might have evolved a means to displace competing sperm and not be deeply offended by it.

That’s a mirror you’re looking into. Honestly, Loren, you are being willfully ignorant. US history is filled with the names of people who grew up in poverty and rose to great heights because of their intellectual talents and hard work. And we have an extremely prominent example of someone born into great wealth and privilege who is no one’s idea of an intelligent man sitting in the Oval Office right now—or golfing or on the toilet. Who knows.

You get that Loren is talking about an aspect of physical evolution that happened eons ago in our very, very distant past, don't you? It has nothing at all to do with US history, and certainly nothing to do with who the hell sits in office for a four year span of time.

Heck, if someone talks about the lack of melanin in caucasians being an environmental adaptation to lower levels of sunlight, thus advantaging those who can process more vitamin d, you wouldn't go off on a bender about how we just had a black president and black people can have vitamin d deficiencies if they live in the north too, would you?

It’s the attitudes I’m protesting. Plus the absolute ignorance of anatomy, sexuality, and reproduction.

Most of the time, I'd be right there with you... but I'm not seeing the attitude from Loren than you seem to be seeing.

And I doubt that our human ancestors engaged in gang bangs routinely. Humans do not go into heat, so as a strategy of ensuring your sperm wins, it would really suck.

I mean... how far back in our family tree are you looking? If you're only looking to the past 50K years or so where we have anthropological evidence of human societies, probably not. If you're looking at the past 300K years of homo sapiens sapiens I think that might get a little tougher to defend. If you include ancestors in the same genus, now you're talking several million years. How long ago are you assuming that the human penis evolved?

And more to the point, who said anything about gang bangs other than you? You're the one who has interpreted this through the lens of a porno. I don't see any reason to assume that none of our distant ancestors could possibly have had multiple male partners within a relatively short period of time. Hell, there are plenty of women today who will have sex with more than one guy in the same day, and do so willingly.

My point here is that you're errantly applying modern cultural views onto ancestors millions of years ago, then berating Loren for talking about that million-year-old evolutionary development. It's one thing to take the position that you don't buy the hypothesis, it's quite another to attack Loren for referencing someone else's work that he found plausible.

Personally I think some men like the idea of gang bangs and like the idea that they can control their sperm without the inconvenience of wearing a condom. Evolution be damned.

Condoms didn't exist millions of years ago so... *shrug*

The only reason I can see for a human penis to evolve to scoop out other men’s ejaculate in order to ensure his sperm fertilizes the egg is in a gang bang situation. Which genuinely only makes sense if humans undergo a heat, which they do not.

Logic contradicts that supposition even if greater than a cursory knowledge of female anatomy and conception escape us.

I suspect the “scooping “ explanation of the human penis is pure speculation on the part if people with way too much time on their hands.

An acccurate summary of nearly all arguments from so-called "evolutionary psychology", when you really look in to them.

Loren's argument wasn't evolutionary psychology, it was evolutionary biology. Speculative, absolutely - but so is 90% of the presumed explanations for why any species evolved some particular characteristic. Hell, it's speculative that higher melanin evolved as a protection against skin cancer and injury in equatorial regions, and lower melanin evolved as a means to increase vitamin d accessibility in higher latitudes.

 

[Emily Lake]

You aren't proposing any solution unless you think sexual slavery is a good thing.

IMHO, female empowerment could be reduced without making them sexual slaves.

Would you call decreasing female empowerment to the extent it at least makes economic sense for them to partner with a male person sexual slavery? Would you call increasing the female incentive for the biological father of her offspring to help raise their children sexual slavery?

Both of those solutions decrease female empowerment without making them into sexual slaves IMO.

So those are atleast 2 solutions I would not call sexual slavery. Perhaps you still disagree. But if you do still disagree that begs the question why you would not call everyone who labors at a job a slave? Most everyone in the world is incentivized to do things we would not otherwise do just for our survival.

If you are compelling them to partner up to function that's sexual slavery.

A job is not slavery because it's a benefit, not a cost.

Just gonna say, how far out of the tree does someone have to be to get me, you, and pood ALL in agreement?

Also... FFS, toggle to BB code and trim your posts once in a while! It literally takes ten seconds, and it makes life better for everyone.

 

[Emily Lake]

I've given the same simple advice, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good, and smile", for many years, but have yet to see the recipient actually try it.

The problem is this is the low hanging fruit, you act as if it is a general solution.

Meh, it's like 80% of the solution.

 

[Emily Lake]

“We want sex! We want sex! We want sex!”

You're too generous. It's more like "We demand sex and women have to give it to us or else!"

 

[Emily Lake]

Loren you do not understand female anatomy, fertility, conception or reproduction or human behavior very well or you would recognize the ignorant sexism of your theory.

It's not Loren's theory. It's someone else's hypothesis that Loren shared.

Your ‘recognition’ of hunter gatherer societies are based on out dated and uninformed reality that over values Hunter and trivializes gatherer when the opposite is true: those who could gather food contributed the bulk of the calories and nutrition required for survival.

You are so caught up on some male centric sex is for male pleasure and to continue the male line world view you treat women as mere vessels designed to accept and carry out male prerogatives.

Loren has done no such thing here, Toni.

Women have always had as much free will as men, even when their actions were curtailed. Women have always had sexual desires beyond reproduction. After all, humans do not have an estrus cycle, yet have sex without the possibility of producing offspring. People have sex after menopause. People go to great lengths to control fertility for many reasons, including to help ensure survival of existing offspring.

Why do you persist in assuming that our ancestors of some 3+ million years ago are exactly like us today?

The world has never worked the way you imagine, except in the imaginations of some very insecure men.

You're overreaching to assume that more than 3 million years ago, things worked the way they do now.

Look, I get that you don't like Loren, and I get that Loren sometimes has some views that are pretty disparaging toward women. But this isn't one of those times.

 

[Elixir]

Still waiting for @RVonse to explain this disempowering the wimmins thing, and how it would help incels get laid.

I am still waiting for a reason why anyone other than themselves should care a whit whether or not incels get laid.

They become dangerous sometimes?
Maybe WAB will share the address of the “incel forum” and you can judge for yourself. I’m concerned if there are truly lots and lots of them. But I suspect they are disproportionately loud, as they are disproportionately whiney, and there aren’t so many of them.
AFAICS they like to talk about 20% of men being attractive to 80% of women, even though no normal man expects to get laid by 80% of women for no reason except that they fancy themself among the 20%.
If you are a male, and are attractive to a tiny fraction - say 0.1% of women - that means there are hundred of thousands or millions of women you could attract (pro tip: try one at a time!), just on the basis of superficial attraction. Unless you’re just simply an asshole and/or a creep, it’s just a matter of getting out there instead of commiserating and raging on some pity party “incel” forum.

This is the forum I went to.

Inceldom Discussion

Talk about inceldom, coping strategies, and anything else related to involuntary celibacy. Share your experiences here.

incels.is

It was the first to come up in my search. I read through about four threads and glanced at others. The site claims over 33,000 members, and it certainly looks busy.

Tons of misogyny, and an equal measure of self-loathing. There is a curious reliance on invented, insider jargon and terminology, so much so that half the time I have no idea what they're talking about.

I WAS ONLY KIDDING !!

 

[bilby]

If you are a male, and are attractive to a tiny fraction - say 0.1% of women - that means there are hundred of thousands or millions of women you could attract (pro tip: try one at a time!)

Yeah, all of this. The problem these idiots have is self-inflicted, and maiy arises from their seeing women as an amorphous commodity, rather than as individual humans with wants, needs, desires, and thoughts all of their own.

Look around - there are observably at least some women out there who will tolerate men that have no apparently redeeming features whatsoever.

 

[Toni]

Loren you do not understand female anatomy, fertility, conception or reproduction or human behavior very well or you would recognize the ignorant sexism of your theory.

It's not Loren's theory. It's someone else's hypothesis that Loren shared.

Your ‘recognition’ of hunter gatherer societies are based on out dated and uninformed reality that over values Hunter and trivializes gatherer when the opposite is true: those who could gather food contributed the bulk of the calories and nutrition required for survival.

You are so caught up on some male centric sex is for male pleasure and to continue the male line world view you treat women as mere vessels designed to accept and carry out male prerogatives.

Loren has done no such thing here, Toni.

Women have always had as much free will as men, even when their actions were curtailed. Women have always had sexual desires beyond reproduction. After all, humans do not have an estrus cycle, yet have sex without the possibility of producing offspring. People have sex after menopause. People go to great lengths to control fertility for many reasons, including to help ensure survival of existing offspring.

Why do you persist in assuming that our ancestors of some 3+ million years ago are exactly like us today?

The world has never worked the way you imagine, except in the imaginations of some very insecure men.

You're overreaching to assume that more than 3 million years ago, things worked the way they do now.

Look, I get that you don't like Loren, and I get that Loren sometimes has some views that are pretty disparaging toward women. But this isn't one of those times.

I’ve done no such thing.

It is impossible to ‘know’ mating practices of species who lived 3 million years ago.

It is possible to know that the penises of our closest living relatives differ dramatic calls from human penises in shape or anatomy, with bonobos and chimpanzees both having a penile bone and lacking the glans which is prominently featured in this discussion.

The supposed mechanism for makes ensuring their semen wins the race has zero evidence and indeed is in direct contradiction with human female anatomy and with human reproduction. It’s both ludicrous and offensive.

 

[pood]

Still waiting for @RVonse to explain this disempowering the wimmins thing, and how it would help incels get laid.

I am still waiting for a reason why anyone other than themselves should care a whit whether or not incels get laid.

They become dangerous sometimes?
Maybe WAB will share the address of the “incel forum” and you can judge for yourself. I’m concerned if there are truly lots and lots of them. But I suspect they are disproportionately loud, as they are disproportionately whiney, and there aren’t so many of them.
AFAICS they like to talk about 20% of men being attractive to 80% of women, even though no normal man expects to get laid by 80% of women for no reason except that they fancy themself among the 20%.
If you are a male, and are attractive to a tiny fraction - say 0.1% of women - that means there are hundred of thousands or millions of women you could attract (pro tip: try one at a time!), just on the basis of superficial attraction. Unless you’re just simply an asshole and/or a creep, it’s just a matter of getting out there instead of commiserating and raging on some pity party “incel” forum.

This is the forum I went to.

Inceldom Discussion

Talk about inceldom, coping strategies, and anything else related to involuntary celibacy. Share your experiences here.

incels.is

It was the first to come up in my search. I read through about four threads and glanced at others. The site claims over 33,000 members, and it certainly looks busy.

Tons of misogyny, and an equal measure of self-loathing. There is a curious reliance on invented, insider jargon and terminology, so much so that half the time I have no idea what they're talking about.

I guess I’m sorry I clicked that.

The third sticky thread at the top is entitled, “Having sex with a non-virgin is equivalent to wiping your butt with used toilet paper.” The very first post in the thread is just two words: “truth nuke.” Followed by the first response: “trvue.”

Think I’ll give this a pass.

 

[WAB]

Still waiting for @RVonse to explain this disempowering the wimmins thing, and how it would help incels get laid.

I am still waiting for a reason why anyone other than themselves should care a whit whether or not incels get laid.

They become dangerous sometimes?
Maybe WAB will share the address of the “incel forum” and you can judge for yourself. I’m concerned if there are truly lots and lots of them. But I suspect they are disproportionately loud, as they are disproportionately whiney, and there aren’t so many of them.
AFAICS they like to talk about 20% of men being attractive to 80% of women, even though no normal man expects to get laid by 80% of women for no reason except that they fancy themself among the 20%.
If you are a male, and are attractive to a tiny fraction - say 0.1% of women - that means there are hundred of thousands or millions of women you could attract (pro tip: try one at a time!), just on the basis of superficial attraction. Unless you’re just simply an asshole and/or a creep, it’s just a matter of getting out there instead of commiserating and raging on some pity party “incel” forum.

This is the forum I went to.

Inceldom Discussion

Talk about inceldom, coping strategies, and anything else related to involuntary celibacy. Share your experiences here.

incels.is

It was the first to come up in my search. I read through about four threads and glanced at others. The site claims over 33,000 members, and it certainly looks busy.

Tons of misogyny, and an equal measure of self-loathing. There is a curious reliance on invented, insider jargon and terminology, so much so that half the time I have no idea what they're talking about.

I WAS ONLY KIDDING !!

Well maybe a mod can delete the link?

 

[Politesse]

Loren's argument wasn't evolutionary psychology, it was evolutionary biology. Speculative, absolutely - but so is 90% of the presumed explanations for why any species evolved some particular characteristic

You are very close to understanding the problem with justifying political policies on the basis of speculative fiction.

 

[Swammerdami]

Still waiting for @RVonse to explain this disempowering the wimmins thing, and how it would help incels get laid.

I am still waiting for a reason why anyone other than themselves should care a whit whether or not incels get laid.

RVonse had given a reason (or a threat?) which you disparage:

Sooner or later incels are going to cause some serious trouble. If history is any guide our leaders will probably just start another huge big and violent war to get rid of them. But with the modern weapons of today lets just hope we survive.

Unless your claim is that Vladimir Putin is an incel, this seems like an astonishing leap of logic.

A handful of pimply losers without girlfriends are not an existential threat to humanity, and neither are they a casus belli.

Violent right-wing men ARE a major threat in the U.S.A. I wonder how many of them are incels. Based on Jordan Klepper interviews and other evidence, misogyny is certainly prevalent among ardent pro-Trump MAGGATs. Even female Trump-lickers seem anti-women.

I am reminded of the strength of individual right-wing haters by recent YouTubes reacting to the Kirk assassination. I've seen reruns of top MAGGATs, including BOTH of Trump's V.P.s, Fucker Carlson, Don Jr., and some Foxettes all literally cackling with glee about Paul Pelosi being almost killed by a hammer-wielding Trumpist!

It sure seems that hatred dominates right-wing America. I'm not claiming that Vance, Don Jr., the Fucker etc. are incels, but their modus operandi is to exploit hatred. Surely the misogyny and self-loathing of incels arises from the same spiritual darkness as racism and xenophobia.

But it's probably wrong to link ALL incels to misogyny and self-loathing. Many are victims of a flawed society which no longer nurtures maturity.

Just now I asked ChatGPT about incels:

In the U.S., the General Social Survey (2018–2021) found a rise in young men (under 30) reporting no sex in the past year — around 28% in 2018 vs. ~10% in the early 2000s.

Almost a TRIPLING of "no sex" in just 15 years?? That seems like a HUGE social change.

the actively engaged online incel community worldwide numbers tens of thousands (maybe ~50k–100k across platforms), but the broader pool of young men who might resonate with incel themes is much larger — possibly in the millions.
...
Anglophone countries dominate online incel spaces [mainly] because English is the lingua franca of the internet [but East Asia also has] organized online incel cultures: herbivore men (Japan), sampo generation (Korea), shengnan/shengnu (China, for “leftover men/women”). Not always “incel” in the strict sense, but overlapping issues of social isolation, dating, and declining marriage.

 

[Elixir]

Still waiting for @RVonse to explain this disempowering the wimmins thing, and how it would help incels get laid.

Well, iffen wimmins got down to zero power they wouldn’t have no dam choice about it, right?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Perhaps autism is part of it. But empowerment is much more likely considering a zero sum game. When you give one sex much more power it will surely be at some cost to someone else.

I do see the benefits of female empowerment. Its just the lack of people willing to admit there has been a cost, especially when their ideology is at stake. And you see this with both conservatives and liberals. For example, if an oil well needs to be exploited you will find a conservative anywhere who will justify its enormous environmental cost. But its no difference with the progressives. Progressives on this thread seem to have a great deal trouble even to acknowledge the incels let alone discuss a whole segment of the population greatly affected by what has happened with female empowerment.

1) Most people do not consider it a cost when power is given to the side that has less of it.

2) You're missing the fact that giving more power to males will not ensure a more even distribution of sex.

(And you're missing that love is far more important than sex. You do not get love by applying pressure.)

 

[Toni]

Perhaps autism is part of it. But empowerment is much more likely considering a zero sum game. When you give one sex much more power it will surely be at some cost to someone else.

I do see the benefits of female empowerment. Its just the lack of people willing to admit there has been a cost, especially when their ideology is at stake. And you see this with both conservatives and liberals. For example, if an oil well needs to be exploited you will find a conservative anywhere who will justify its enormous environmental cost. But its no difference with the progressives. Progressives on this thread seem to have a great deal trouble even to acknowledge the incels let alone discuss a whole segment of the population greatly affected by what has happened with female empowerment.

1) Most people do not consider it a cost when power is given to the side that has less of it.

2) You're missing the fact that giving more power to males will not ensure a more even distribution of sex.

(And you're missing that love is far more important than sex. You do not get love by applying pressure.)

Also rape is not sex. It’s assault. Sex under ‘pressure’ is quite often rape.

 

[Bronzeage]

Many appear to be on the autism spectrum. Messes you up in social interactions in general, of course it messes you up in the hardest of the social interactions. Doesn't make them repulsive. Once they get radicalized, though, they become very repulsive. And the failure to find someone can easily lead to depression which would make them unattractive even without radicalization. I think much of what is pointed out about being unattractive is actually the result of depression, not the root cause. They fail in real world social interactions, they retreat into a domain where ability counts for more than social skills.

Perhaps autism is part of it. But empowerment is much more likely considering a zero sum game. When you give one sex much more power it will surely be at some cost to someone else.

I do see the benefits of female empowerment. Its just the lack of people willing to admit there has been a cost, especially when their ideology is at stake. And you see this with both conservatives and liberals. For example, if an oil well needs to be exploited you will find a conservative anywhere who will justify its enormous environmental cost. But its no difference with the progressives. Progressives on this thread seem to have a great deal trouble even to acknowledge the incels let alone discuss a whole segment of the population greatly affected by what has happened with female empowerment.

It would help if you could specify exactly what female empowerment means and why it has led to the identification of this group you call incels.

 

[Elixir]

I've given the same simple advice, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good, and smile", for many years, but have yet to see the recipient actually try it.

Did you HAVE to give away ALL my tricks??

 

[Bronzeage]

I've given the same simple advice, "Clean shirt, clean nails, smell good, and smile", for many years, but have yet to see the recipient actually try it.

Did you HAVE to give away ALL my tricks??

I did leave out "look like you're happy to be there".