The Race For 2024

[Copernicus]

If (God forbids) Trump wins in Nov. how many will finally do what they have claimed on some many times and actually leave the USA for a better country? Do we have any figures on the expected immigration, escape rate?

This is NOT to be represented as an invitation to come to Australia. Yanks are always better 'over there'

How about if we just send you our criminals? That has worked out well for Australia in the past.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It’s not clear to me that one can simply move.

Given the means you could live wherever you want, and come back to Trumpistan at required intervals to renew your visa.
Right now I don’t have any choice, as Mrs E is in no shape for travel. Hopefully that changes sooner than later.

Sure, “given the means”, but given my means I would still need to earn income while living abroad so how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries?

Maybe Brad Pitt could move but could I?

 

[Elixir]

I’m no Brad Pitt, but I can make it work on paper.* Wouldn’t be living the life of Brad, but it might very well be better than what’s coming my way if Cheato seizes power.

* Not living on paper … it’s not feasible this year.

 

[laughing dog]

Looking at the OP, s Haley v Harris POTUS contest looks so much better than what we have.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I’m no Brad Pitt, but I can make it work on paper.* Wouldn’t be living the life of Brad, but it might very well be better than what’s coming my way if Cheato seizes power.

* Not living on paper … it’s not feasible this year.

The question is: how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries? If I moved there next year could I find a job to pay my housing and food costs?

 

[Shadowy Man]

And even with a work permit or work visa that can be an unstable lifestyle. I know, for example, some foreign scientists who work here in the States on government grants with a work visa and if the government goes into shutdown then they can be forced back to their countries of origin. Hopefully those other countries are more stable than ours.

 

[Politesse]

If (God forbids) Trump wins in Nov. how many will finally do what they have claimed on some many times and actually leave the USA for a better country? Do we have any figures on the expected immigration, escape rate?

This is NOT to be represented as an invitation to come to Australia. Yanks are always better 'over there'

I think the number of people you think who claim they are going to leave the country are fewer than you believe there are.

Dunno about that. Its seems anyone who in is anyone in Hollywood has threated to do so. Not a good sample pot I know.

A few on these fora have mumbled about is over the years. So how many is it?

Around 4 million US citizens live abroad at present. The number will surely increase. But, as usual, the populations most endangered are also those the least able to leave. The kind of money necessary to affect an escape is also a balm against persecution. For a while.

 

[bilby]

Assuming they would want to stick to an English speaking country of similar culture, how easy is it to get work permits and citizenship in Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the UK? It’s not clear to me that one can simply move.

Given the means you could live wherever you want, and come back to Trumpistan at required intervals to renew your visa.

Sure, “given the means”, but given my means I would still need to earn income while living abroad so how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries?

Maybe Brad Pitt could move but could I?

The question is: how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries? If I moved there next year could I find a job to pay my housing and food costs?

One does not simply walk into Australia.

A US Citizen can get a three month visitor visa very easily indeed, but it absolutely does not permit any kind of employment while here. Of course, it's possible to find poorly paid illegal work and to overstay, though you risk immediate imprisonment and deportation if caught.

If you want to get a work permit, you need a sponsor. The sponsor can be an employer (who needs to declare to the Immigration Dept. that they cannot find a suitably qualified citizen to fill a specified role); Or a family member (including a spouse) who is a citizen and who will declare that they will support you if you cannot support yourself, and that you will not attempt to apply for any government benefits. Sponsored permanent residency tales a long time to process, and requires many hundreds of dollars, not just for application fees, but also for a rigorous medical. You need to be healthy, and it helps a lot to be young.

When I emigrated, I was sponsored by my wife; The application took almost a year, cost over £600, and had to be made from outside Australia - they won't let you stay in the country while you are being vetted. I was under 30 at the time, which was a major point in my favour.

If you are on the preferred occupation list, you might be able to get in without a sponsor. The list varies, but last time I checked, it was very short. If you are a doctor or a dentist, you have a good chance - but if you are over 40, you might have to commit to a minimum two years working in "rural or reagional Australia" - ie in the outback - to get enough points to qualify for a work permit.

You can also apply to come here for work of limited duration - for example as a representative of a US employer here to work on a specific project, or to attend a conference or convention, or as a professional athlete here for a specific competition. You will be required to leave when the gig finishes, though.

If you have Brad Pitt money, you can obtain a permanent residency on a retirement visa; It does not permit you to work, and you must not only show that you have sufficient assets or rights to a pension to provide you with a livable income indefinitely, but must also pay a non-refundable application fee which (last time I checked, many years ago) was $8,000AU.

New Zealand is, I am told, slightly easier to get into, but not much - they have treaty obligations to roughly match Australian rules for any immigrant on a citizenship track, consequent to the reciprocal agreements that allow free movement between Australia and NZ fkr each others citizens.

The UK is unlikely to be much better, though you can get in easily if at least one of your grandparents was a UK citizen. If you don't qualify on the grandparent rule, you are in the same position as someone heading for Aus/NZ.

Canada is likely the most difficult; They have similar rules to Au/NZ, but with the additional requirement that you learn French, as well as English. Ces Quebecois, ils sont fou.

All of the above is from my rusty memory, and may well have changed - but the trend has been to make it harder, not easier, so if anything I am likely understating the degree of difficulty.

Americans are welcome across the world, as tourists with money to spend. But you are expected to scurry in, empty your wallets, and scuttle off. If you want to stay, you will find you are a lot less welcome. unless, of course, you are Brad Pitt.

It's much easier to get into shithole countries, of course. Russia will take you, though you might be given a tin hat and sent to Kursk.

 

[Politesse]

Canada is likely the most difficult; They have similar rules to Au/NZ, but with the additional requirement that you learn French, as well as English. Ces Quebecois, ils sont fou.

And they mean it! The language exam is said to be quite tricky.

 

[Elixir]

anyone who in is anyone in Hollywood has threated to do so

Anyone who is anyone in Hollywood has that option. They’re not a significant fraction of the American population, perhaps contrary to popular belief in some corners of the globe.

 

[Elixir]

Assuming they would want to stick to an English speaking country of similar culture, how easy is it to get work permits and citizenship in Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the UK? It’s not clear to me that one can simply move.

Given the means you could live wherever you want, and come back to Trumpistan at required intervals to renew your visa.

Sure, “given the means”, but given my means I would still need to earn income while living abroad so how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries?

Maybe Brad Pitt could move but could I?

The question is: how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries? If I moved there next year could I find a job to pay my housing and food costs?

One does not simply walk into Australia.

A US Citizen can get a three month visitor visa very easily indeed, but it absolutely does not permit any kind of employment while here. Of course, it's possible to find poorly paid illegal work and to overstay, though you risk immediate imprisonment and deportation if caught.

If you want to get a work permit, you need a sponsor. The sponsor can be an employer (who needs to declare to the Immigration Dept. that they cannot find a suitably qualified citizen to fill a specified role); Or a family member (including a spouse) who is a citizen and who will declare that they will support you if you cannot support yourself, and that you will not attempt to apply for any government benefits. Sponsored permanent residency tales a long time to process, and requires many hundreds of dollars, not just for application fees, but also for a rigorous medical. You need to be healthy, and it helps a lot to be young.

When I emigrated, I was sponsored by my wife; The application took almost a year, cost over £600, and had to be made from outside Australia - they won't let you stay in the country while you are being vetted. I was under 30 at the time, which was a major point in my favour.

If you are on the preferred occupation list, you might be able to get in without a sponsor. The list varies, but last time I checked, it was very short. If you are a doctor or a dentist, you have a good chance - but if you are over 40, you might have to commit to a minimum two years working in "rural or reagional Australia" - ie in the outback - to get enough points to qualify for a work permit.

You can also apply to come here for work of limited duration - for example as a representative of a US employer here to work on a specific project, or to attend a conference or convention, or as a professional athlete here for a specific competition. You will be required to leave when the gig finishes, though.

If you have Brad Pitt money, you can obtain a permanent residency on a retirement visa; It does not permit you to work, and you must not only show that you have sufficient assets or rights to a pension to provide you with a livable income indefinitely, but must also pay a non-refundable application fee which (last time I checked, many years ago) was $8,000AU.

New Zealand is, I am told, slightly easier to get into, but not much - they have treaty obligations to roughly match Australian rules for any immigrant on a citizenship track, consequent to the reciprocal agreements that allow free movement between Australia and NZ fkr each others citizens.

The UK is unlikely to be much better, though you can get in easily if at least one of your grandparents was a UK citizen. If you don't qualify on the grandparent rule, you are in the same position as someone heading for Aus/NZ.

Canada is likely the most difficult; They have similar rules to Au/NZ, but with the additional requirement that you learn French, as well as English. Ces Quebecois, ils sont fou.

All of the above is from my rusty memory, and may well have changed - but the trend has been to make it harder, not easier, so if anything I am likely understating the degree of difficulty.

Americans are welcome across the world, as tourists with money to spend. But you are expected to scurry in, empty your wallets, and scuttle off. If you want to stay, you will find you are a lot less welcome. unless, of course, you are Brad Pitt.

It's much easier to get into shithole countries, of course. Russia will take you, though you might be given a tin hat and sent to Kursk.

What if you’re retired, have no intention to work or do anything but spend US dollars?
Will they renew your visa or do you have to fly back stateside every three months?

 

[bilby]

What if you’re retired, have no intention to work or do anything but spend US dollars?
Will they renew your visa or do you have to fly back stateside every three months?

f you have Brad Pitt money, you can obtain a permanent residency on a retirement visa; It does not permit you to work, and you must not only show that you have sufficient assets or rights to a pension to provide you with a livable income indefinitely, but must also pay a non-refundable application fee which (last time I checked, many years ago) was $8,000AU.

If you qualify, it's a permanent arrangement, and you can remain in Australia indefinitely.

However you are only allowed entry to Australia for the first few years (IIRC three years) using the visa they put in your passport. After that, if you leave the country (for any reason, and for any amount of time, however brief), you must obtain a re-entry permit before you go, or you won't be allowed back in without a new full-blown application (including all the fees). Lots of people get caught out by that.

Of course, once you have been a resident for two years, you can apply for citizenship; And as a citizen you have the same rights as any other Australian. I am not sure whether citizenship applications are allowed for the retirement visa class though - you might need to be eligible to work in order to qualify.

 

[Toni]

If (God forbids) Trump wins in Nov. how many will finally do what they have claimed on some many times and actually leave the USA for a better country? Do we have any figures on the expected immigration, escape rate?

This is NOT to be represented as an invitation to come to Australia. Yanks are always better 'over there'

I agree. And this one s no slam on Australia but I don’t wanna immigrate to Australia because I don’t think my life would be better there and I don’t think it’s a better country. I don’t think it’s a worse country. I recognize that all countries have their pluses and minuses. I’m familiar with ours. And I hear too much about the royal family (overseas and US transplant branch) too much already.

 

[Derec]

One does not simply walk into Australia.

No, one takes a boat. But that is not that difficult. Many Afghans etc. have taken boats to Australia. What's worse, these boat migrants can then bring their entire families over, multiplying the numbers.

A US Citizen can get a three month visitor visa very easily indeed, but it absolutely does not permit any kind of employment while here. Of course, it's possible to find poorly paid illegal work and to overstay, though you risk immediate imprisonment and deportation if caught.

Maybe they can pretend to be Afghans and get to stay indefinitely. Why are Afghans not subject to "immediate imprisonment and deportation"?

Or a family member (including a spouse) who is a citizen and who will declare that they will support you if you cannot support yourself, and that you will not attempt to apply for any government benefits.

 

[Tigers!]

If (God forbids) Trump wins in Nov. how many will finally do what they have claimed on some many times and actually leave the USA for a better country? Do we have any figures on the expected immigration, escape rate?

This is NOT to be represented as an invitation to come to Australia. Yanks are always better 'over there'

How about if we just send you our criminals?

Just send the criminals with money. And forget to post the criminals.

That has worked out well for Australia in the past.

Hmmm

 

[bilby]

Why are Afghans not subject to "immediate imprisonment and deportation"?

They are.

Australian law requires the detention of all non-citizens who are in Australia without a valid visa (unlawful non-citizens). This means that immigration officials have no choice but to detain persons who arrive without a visa (unauthorised arrivals), or persons who arrive with a visa and subsequently become unlawful because their visa has expired or been cancelled (authorised arrivals). Australian law makes no distinction between the detention of adults and children.

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/projects/6-australias-immigration-detention-policy-and-practice

Australia’s mandatory immigration detention framework is contained within the Migration Act 1958 (Cth).

Under this law, Australian Border Force Officers must detain unlawful non-citizens. A person might be unlawful because:

• they arrived without a valid visa
• their visa was cancelled
• their visa has expired

https://www.abf.gov.au/about-us/what-we-do/border-protection/immigration-detention

Of course, if they can show that deportation would place them at risk, or would render them stateless, Australia is required by international treaty obligation to permit them to stay until
that situation no longer obtains. But that's true for all arrivals; There are no special provisions for Afghans, or for any other foreign nationals (other than New Zealanders, who have special migration privileges when arriving in Australia).

If detainees cannot validly claim assylum or refugee status, or prove that they do have the right to enter Australia (eg due to mis-identification of a citizen), the only other way out of immigration detention is deportation.

 

[Derec]

Why are Afghans not subject to "immediate imprisonment and deportation"?

They are.

No, they aren't. This boat Afghan not only got to stay in Australia for 12 years, he even got to bring his entire brood over:

From here.

In February 2023, the new Albanese Labor government enacts an election promise that’s a game changer for Mohammad.
It announces 19,000 refugees who arrived in Australia before Operation Sovereign Borders began will be eligible for a permanent visa.
Those already holding a TPV or SHEV, like Mohammad, can apply to transition to a Resolution of Status (RoS) visa.
It offers rights and benefits such as social security payments, higher education assistance and access to the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
And, crucially, it means family members can be sponsored to come to Australia.

No deportation for them! Nor did he have to marry an Australian or go through any other hoops you mentioned are in place for Americans.
I tell you, if you want to immigrate into Australia, being a boat Afghan is the most promising way. Especially with the The Albanian being your prime minister now.

 

[Toni]

Harris just received a very important endorsement:

Endorsement of Vice President Kamala Harris for President of the United States — National Security Leaders for America

Kamala Harris will make an excellent Commander-in-Chief, while Mr. Trump has proven he is not up to the job. Effective leadership requires in-depth knowledge, careful deliberation, understanding of your adversaries, and empathy for those you lead. Our endorsement is an act of patriotism and an endor

www.nsl4a.org

The contrast with Mr. Trump is clear: where Vice President Harris is prepared and strategic, he is impulsive and ill-informed. He has heaped praise on adversarial dictators like China’s Xi Jinping, North Korea’s Kim Jung Un, and Russia’s Vladimir Putin, as well as the terrorist leaders of Hezbollah. Conversely, he has publicly and privately excoriated the leaders of our most steadfast allies, including the United Kingdom, Israel, Australia, Canada, and Germany. He abandoned our Kurdish allies while ceding influence in the Middle East to Russia, Iran, and China.

Further, Mr. Trump denigrates our great country and does not believe in the American ideal that our leaders should reflect the will of the people.

 

[Tigers!]

Assuming they would want to stick to an English speaking country of similar culture, how easy is it to get work permits and citizenship in Australia, New Zealand, Canada or the UK? It’s not clear to me that one can simply move.

Given the means you could live wherever you want, and come back to Trumpistan at required intervals to renew your visa.

Sure, “given the means”, but given my means I would still need to earn income while living abroad so how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries?

Maybe Brad Pitt could move but could I?

The question is: how easy is it to get a work permit in those countries? If I moved there next year could I find a job to pay my housing and food costs?

One does not simply walk into Australia.

My niece can't even get a visitor's pass for her Ghanaian husband to come her to meet her family.

A US Citizen can get a three month visitor visa very easily indeed, but it absolutely does not permit any kind of employment while here. Of course, it's possible to find poorly paid illegal work and to overstay, though you risk immediate imprisonment and deportation if caught.

If you want to get a work permit, you need a sponsor. The sponsor can be an employer (who needs to declare to the Immigration Dept. that they cannot find a suitably qualified citizen to fill a specified role); Or a family member (including a spouse) who is a citizen and who will declare that they will support you if you cannot support yourself, and that you will not attempt to apply for any government benefits. Sponsored permanent residency tales a long time to process, and requires many hundreds of dollars, not just for application fees, but also for a rigorous medical. You need to be healthy, and it helps a lot to be young.

When I emigrated, I was sponsored by my wife; The application took almost a year, cost over £600, and had to be made from outside Australia - they won't let you stay in the country while you are being vetted. I was under 30 at the time, which was a major point in my favour.

If you are on the preferred occupation list, you might be able to get in without a sponsor. The list varies, but last time I checked, it was very short. If you are a doctor or a dentist, you have a good chance - but if you are over 40, you might have to commit to a minimum two years working in "rural or reagional Australia" - ie in the outback - to get enough points to qualify for a work permit.

If you have a rare talent Australia needs - kick a football a country mile, hit a ball out of the MCG, crash a scum line, swim like a dolphin, run 100m < 10.2 secs (you can see what we look for).
Oh a doctor or scientist might get a guernsey too.

It's much easier to get into shithole countries, of course. Russia will take you, though you might be given a tin hat and sent to Kursk.

If you ignore the existing bullet hole.

 

[bilby]

Why are Afghans not subject to "immediate imprisonment and deportation"?

They are.

No, they aren't. This boat Afghan not only got to stay in Australia for 12 years, he even got to bring his entire brood over:

From here.

In February 2023, the new Albanese Labor government enacts an election promise that’s a game changer for Mohammad.
It announces 19,000 refugees who arrived in Australia before Operation Sovereign Borders began will be eligible for a permanent visa.
Those already holding a TPV or SHEV, like Mohammad, can apply to transition to a Resolution of Status (RoS) visa.
It offers rights and benefits such as social security payments, higher education assistance and access to the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
And, crucially, it means family members can be sponsored to come to Australia.

No deportation for them!

No. Because "Those already holding a TPV or SHEV" are the refugees I mentioned. They are now allowed to apply for an RoS visa. After twelve years, during which it remained unsafe to deport them, but during which that was always the Australian government's preferred option, if it became possible conversant with our obligations under international law.

Nor did he have to marry an Australian or go through any other hoops you mentioned are in place for Americans.

If you think obtaining a TPV or SHEV requires not going through any hoops, you are welcome to try it. Just be aware that you will be locked up until you jump those hoops.

I tell you, if you want to immigrate into Australia, being a boat Afghan is the most promising way.

Then I tell you that you are very seriously misinformed.

And that doesn't much surprise me, as you appear to have a religious faith that Muslims and women are getting special privileges everywhere in the world, presumably for the primary purpose of enraging you.

In fact, few laws anywhere are passed solely to anger you; And Australian migration laws are harsh to the point of being inhumane (and do not grant any special status whatsoever to Afghans).